287 | Oscar Nominees Joachim Trier & Eskil Vogt On Doing It Your Way
Joe Forte dives DEEP this week with the singular and brilliant Oscar nominated duo behind Sentimental Value, Joachim Trier and Eskil Vogt.
The two discuss their unique partnership which started with a tremendous appreciation and equal love of film in their late teens.
Joachim and Eskil are so eager and gracious to give such insight into their process and what they believe to be the importance of craft and how they shape a script that leads to Joachim's direction; starting with character and themes instead of plot. Not painting by numbers. And utilizing their individuality to craft a film.
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The Screenwriting Life is produced and edited by Alex Alcheh.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Joe: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Screenwriting Life. I am not Meg Lefauve or Lorien McKenna. No, it is me. Joe Forte riding solo today, attempting to fill the large shoes of my collaborators. Today we are joined by Joachim Trier and Esk Vogt, the prolific Norwegian filmmaking duo, best known for their deep, long-term creative partnership as director and co-writer, crafting critically acclaimed films like The Oslo Trilogy, which includes Reprise. Oslo, August 31st, and their breakout, The Worst Person in the World, which earned them the nomination for best international film and best original screenplay at the Academy Awards in 2022, leading Lady Renate Reinsve won the Cannes Film Festival Best Actress Award for that film as well.
Joe: Their collaboration, which began in their teens when both were assistants on a quiz show in Norway, is characterized by a unique conversational writing process. Focused on authentic human stories, exploring themes of memory, relationship, and art, often inspired by deep personal experiences. Their latest film, Sentimental Value is their sixth collaboration and the third with Renate Reinsve.
Joe: The film won the 2025 Cannes Film Festival Grand Prix, and is nominated for eight Academy awards this year, including Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Original Screenplay, Joachim and Eskill. Welcome to the show. I'm so late to talk to you guys today about your, your, your knockout film, Sentimental Value, which I love, and watched it again last night and it just gets deeper and richer.
Joe: We wanna talk about your scene process and of course, just want to throw props up to The Worst Person in the World as well, and just what you guys are cooking up. It's amazing. Before we dive in, we're gonna talk about our weeks. This is what we do on the show and we call it Adventures in Screenwriting.
Joe: So I'll start and, you know, this is a craft driven show. It's about the people out there who are, you know, struggling, trying to come up, you know, all those kind of things. So we're always, I'm always talking to them. But my week was filled with joy. At the last minute we heard that you guys were available to come on, and Mef and Lorien both had family obligations and they said, Joe, do you wanna do this?
Joe: And I was terrified. I was, I was terrified. And I, but it was 'cause I was so excited. So for me, my week is that knowing as an artist and as a creator, terror and joy kind of go together and you have to step into. Moments that you're a little bit intimidated by, but so, and I'm, and I'm really excited for our conversation.
Joe: Joachim, what was what was your week like?
Joachim: My week was quite extraordinary. It's not a week, like most weeks in my life. We are still releasing this film. We are on what I presume is called the award circuit. We have the great honor of having nine Oscar nominations and eight Bathta nominations.
Joachim: So, The week started by being in London and screening the film and being on BBC news, which I think is a fantastic, you know, my mother to be personal for a moment, my mother was one of the heads of the news department of Norwegian equivalent to BBC NRK. And I think that that kind of news organization.
Joachim: You know, that's government funded, still autonomous, to speak freely about what's important and true. I think those things are important. So it's a big deal for me. Then I returned here and we went two days ago to the Oscar luncheon, which is maybe one of the most beautiful moments of being nominated and Eskil and I were there together when we were nominated for The Worst Person in the World.
Joachim: So we knew what we were in for. And just for those who don't understand or don't know about these days, the luncheon is this moment where all nominees get together with their partner or their guests, one guest each, and we all go on stage to take the big group photo and we all get called one after another.
Joachim: People that did short films, people that did sound, and Steven Spielberg and the rest of us, we all get called in a random order to go on stage and we're taking a photo of, and it's rather moving to just have that collegial. Sense of, of a community, which film after all, is, we're not that many people in the world making movies so that if we're lucky that someone likes what we do, we cherish that.
Joachim: So that was my week.
Joe: Having witnessed that, but in the audience as my wife went up onto that stage, it's so beautiful and everybody is there as an artist who struggled and risen and climbed and that feeling in the room, I was so emboldened. I just went up to George Miller and I said, I'm taking a selfie with you.
Joe: 'cause that was the year that was the year Fury Road came out, and it was just enthralled by that. So, Eskli your week might have been somewhat the same.
Eskil: Yeah. I'm afraid I'm just gonna repeat Joachim here. I, I was in London with your Kim and then I, I think the, the, the change is I went back to Oslo and had a day or two with my family and then, and then the traveling began, you know, so, but it's like Joachimi says, the nominees last is such a, it's such a wonderful thing.
Eskil: Everyone's just so happy to be nominated and it's an honor and everyone's so nice to each other, you know, it's, it's really collegial and, and you see so many people you admire.
Joe: Is there somebody you saw who just made your heart stop?
Joachim: I had a moment when Paul Thomas Anderson, who we know a bit, he’s a lovely man and a genius in our opinion.
Joachim: Yes. And he introduced me to Jack Fisk, the fantastical production designer that did the Marty Supreme now and got nominated and also in the past, of course, Tyren Malick and also worked with Paul on There Will be Blood and like just look up Jack Fisk and you'll see some of the best in modern film history.
Joe: Well. I wanna say, let's just get into the show and I, I think the thing that to me is so striking, like just seeing you two for the first time is just the beautiful nature of your collaboration. And you guys have worked on, I, I mean, seven, six films together. Six features. And, you know, you guys have known each other since you've been teenagers?
Joachim: Late, late teens. Yeah. 18, 19 years.
Joe: I mean, I just love that so much. So talk about and I'm gonna talk about this, my theme for this show is choices. 'cause when I went back and saw your film, I just was like. The choices are astounding, you know, and the depth of the work that you guys did to get to all those choices was just mesmerizing to me.
Joe: So I'm gonna, you know, say, you know, for our listeners out there, this process to getting where you guys are, where you're standing among the, the peers the, the, the royalty of our film world. What a great year. What an amazing year. The choice to work together. Why did you guys choose each other?
Joe: That was my question.
Eskil: It didn't feel like a choice. I'm sorry. It was just a, we met in our late teens and we just had the same deep, profound passion for films, and we both wanted to make films, and I didn't know anyone with that same dream. So just meeting Joachim, you know, I decided when I was 14, 15 that I wanted to make films.
Eskil: I had no access to that world. It was just something I felt I wanted to try. And then when I met Joachim, it just, oh, I shared this dream with someone. Now it feels more real. And then, and I think we just thought we would both make films and just stay friends and inspire each other by being film lovers and talk about things and having that bond.
Eskil: But when, of course, when you start making short films, you help each other out,
Joe: right.
Eskil: So when Joachim made his first short, I helped him, I think, I don't think there was a script even. I think I helped you. I drew the storyboards. That was the script for that.
Joachim: Yeah. We talked through every image and I still drew something that looked quite right,
Eskil: and then I was a first assistant on, on that, on the shoot, on first shoot.
Eskil: Then when I met a short, you were like, you did everything. You were even grip, you know? So, so it just evolved like that. And then when you Joachim, went to film school in London he. I thought, yeah, he will go now, do his thing, you know, and I'll do mine. And then he, you, yeah, you had some issues collaborating with some of the screenwriters with like different aesthetics.
Eskil: This was a very social realist school and at the time we had more like those big formal ambitions of the European art house, I think. Yeah. And you did sort of a rebellion at film school and said I, if I can't write my own films, I'll quit. And then they gave in and then you came, came back to Oslo for the Christmas holidays and they looked at me and said, I can't write the script.
Eskil: And, and I said, me neither, but let's figure it out together. And then we started writing Joachim's shorts while he was at film school, and I went over and tried to be script or be something, you know, on those. So, we just, I. Evolved and I went to French film school and a directing class, but we just continued collaborating on Joachim's films.
Joe: Can you talk about sort of, keeping that going and just because you both wear, we, you know, we had Clint Bentley and Greg Kudar trained dreams on, and you know, my wife and I, Meg and I are, are collaborators. Those guys are collaborators. These are very interesting relationships and I think we're living in a time where collaboration is essential.
Joe: So, you know, like what do you, can you talk about, you know, we, we talked about, I, I like to think about it in terms of managing your triggers, you know, and we're a married couple, so it's a little even more higher math. But you know, just like keeping that relationship going and knowing like you, sometimes you gotta do battle, right?
Joe: Sometimes you gotta engage in, you know, Clint and Greg talked about the third way. Just give me a sense of how that push and pull of the process works. Especially since you guys wear a number of hats.
Joachim: Yeah, no, thank you for inviting these conversations. 'cause I think it's actually valuable. Maybe there are other writing partner constellations out there that also go through the necessary crises, but also the joy of collaboration.
Joachim: I think when I talk about crises, it's been good stuff from the beginning. We share a fundamental love for movies and the curiosity and asking that impossible question to answer what is cinematic. What are those formal possibilities in this form that we'd love, and how can we add to it in our best and hopefully personal and best way?
Joachim: So, yeah, we, I mean our, our partners are, they're always saying to us like, you two are like a married couple, so Eske and I are like old friends that know each other well. And I think because it's a struggle, because we are both it sounds a bit pretentious, but a bit angst driven. Like we, we get into a state of mind where we don't feel amazing about ourselves, and then we have that crisis and we try to help each other out of it with the best we can.
Joachim: So we come from a humble place every time that, and I think that, that then to have your best friend next to you and knowing that. One day he'll keep to faith one day or he'll keep to faith. That's great energy. But then you also have these top waves when you're both really excited and you suddenly realize there are small differences in how you something.
Eskil: Yeah.
Joachim: And those can be tricky, but by that time, maybe you're so excited and full of a positive energy that you have a some little bit of yelling and discussion and, but it's okay. We always hug at the end, you know, and, and we gotten used to it. I think it's just being honest that we need to be honest and we both need to be on board.
Joachim: And for some magic reason, it hasn't really been that difficult, has it? Am I wrong in this? I, I feel
Eskil: it. No. No. And I, I mean, we've, we had more fights when we were younger, you know, about stuff, but it was always about the unimportant stuff, which is like with, so when we looked back at we were quarreling world word choice, you know, and then and two weeks later we couldn't even remember who argued what side.
Eskil: It was just that. I think just that you need event because it's, it's such a privilege to do what we do, but it's also very high pressure because you creating your next job, you know, you are you and you need that, and you need to, to have something. And everything is riding on a film, especially if you write and direct as you giving does.
Eskil: If, if that movie doesn't work, your, your career is most likely going to derail in some way, you know? So it's very high pressure. You need to feel completely free. So of course you need to vent sometimes. But what I, what I admire about yoki many things, but what I, one of the reasons why I find this collaboration so gratifying for me is that he's a true collaborator.
Eskil: And that goes for all the people he works with down the line as well. But when we write the script, if we disagree on an idea or something, we'll argue our side. But we'll end up if we disagree, we'll end up finding a third idea that's even better that we both agree on. So when the script is written, it's, it's really our vision together.
Eskil: You know, it's real collaboration and it's never, Joachim never says it has to be like that because I'm the director. He might. Do that later, you know? Yeah. But the script, it's a true collaboration. And then he goes off and makes the film and then it evolves with all those other amazing people he works with.
Eskil: But it's a true we really are on the same page, literally and metaphorically.
Joachim: Yeah. I think that's, that's, and thank you for that compliment. I, I feel the same about you. You're a real collaborator and I, so there's a couple of premises. So first of all, we in the first period of doing short films and maybe reprise our first feature 20 years ago, I, I think as a director, I felt that the more the film looked like, some idea I had in my head the better I was.
Joachim: It was an ego thing. You saw that you proved yourself by.
Eskil: Being Hitchcock.
Joachim: Yeah, yeah. By being Hitchcock, when I say cut, I cut and everyone claps their hands. Oh my God, what a, what a visionary you are. And I think that that, that through the, that feature film, we've learned both of us that it's very process oriented and it's very much about having done a deep groundwork of somatics and structure.
Joachim: And then I can go with the actress and the cinematographers and later on the editor and sustain those fundamental ideas the best we can, but be open to their contribution. And I think, I think Escal as a director, he's also a director of his own.
Joe: Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, yeah.
Joachim: But that's great that we both know that we, we, we, and I don't feel guilty.
Joachim: I know that it's, you know, I do versions of things and eSkill come in, sort of latter half of the editing. He's quite active also, and comes in with strong opinions and good ideas and sees it from the outside when I'm very identified with it, with the editor. And I find at that stage, you know, we, we've never gotten into.
Joachim: For, for touch wood, I haven't disappointed you yet. 'cause you know that it takes on a different form. Yeah. Yet you see that. I think every film has sustained all the fundamentals of what we decided upon in this, in the, in the writing room. Yeah.
Eskil: So what's really intriguing for me is that I feel, of course, as you know, it's a process to make a film.
Eskil: So every choice pushes it forward or changes it. And, and the finished film, you know, I am, I always feel a lot of things have changed and then I talk to someone who was involved or read the script and then watched the finished film and but, but that's it, it's the same thing, right? You're like, no, you, that this has changed place and this is happening.
Eskil: But, but it still feels, it, it is the vision we had, you know, just being heightened in some places or turned a little bit down some places, but it, it, it is what we wanted to do, you know?
Joachim: We will be right back.
Joachim: Welcome back to the show.
Joe: Let's put this through sentimental value. So, you know, you guys got this relationship of trust and you have this shorthand with each other, and you have this like agreement that you're gonna collaborate and you don't even know where that agreement came from. It just it just organically arose.
Joe: Talk about the primordial ooze that this came out of. And, and it's a mutual pri because you both have to agree and get to that state of excitement where you're both like vying to write all the good ideas down before, right? I just, I just love that when you're iterating and everybody has a great idea and you're just in a capturing it.
Joe: Talk about that, that, that, that, that. Sorting process of how you got to, of all the ideas you have and all the things you wanna work at. What, what, what, what, how did you get to this?
Joachim: It's a, it's a, in a way, I think we both wanted to make this film because the spark was a combination of two factors that we care about a lot.
Joachim: There's a lot of personal, indirect personal ideas. We are both now parents. We both have our own parents still around. We are realizing we're in the middle of life, and that liberates us to talk about several generations at once and really identify with several characters, even though none of them are exactly us, we could hopefully write them with a bit of experience and authority.
Joachim: At this stage. We, we both in our early fifties, now I'm turning 52. Any moment ESCO's 51. So we. Jesus man. You know, we are, we are there, we're in middle age now. So that gave us the freedom, I thought, to both make the parent and the child story.
Eskil: It, it's a wonderful age for a writer to be middle aged. You know, you remember being young and you could easily project yourself be at the end of your life.
Eskil: It's, I mean, you can you can confess, you can write really different stages of lives and identify with them. You know, we couldn't do that when we were young.
Joachim: No. That, I think we had other stories and that's, that's like maybe the strength of our collaboration is that we've gone through these, this growing up and becoming adults together.
Joachim: So we can talk about that and those existential developments. But, so back to this specific film. So we have that personal stuff and we also have at the same time a lot of formal curiosity, and formal isn't. So one part of that could be. The opening of the film is a house montage, you know? Or it could be the way that we often build stories sequentially raw and try to find our own style of dramaticy for each film.
Joachim: But it could also be that we are now aware that we are really wanna work with a particular type of performance and have to write quite behaviorally, we think, exciting stuff about the tender, difficult, unspoken situations between family members. Like we, we really wanted to ex explore that. How do we talk when we are avoiding what we can't talk about kind of situations and the humor and the sadness of that.
Joachim: And then thinking, okay, we're gonna really work with some specific actors. We knew we wanted Renato Ryan Sway again. And still in Scars score. We were lucky to kind of get a feeling he wanted to join us this time. We were great admirers of his, but, but, so when we talk formal, people often think it's a cold remote description of something very artsy, fary to us.
Joachim: Formal calls would be like. We're gonna have a long dialogue and we're gonna really explore this. And I can talk as a director of how I would like to work with the actors to take risks. And we can write longer versions when we approach shoot of scenes where we know we only need a bit of it, but I'm gonna work around with a bigger text and the actors and seeing the edit exactly what we need.
Joachim: And we're thinking very pragmatically about a lot of ways that we're gonna shoot.
Joe: I love how that come out in the, the, the, the moment where you are where I'm gonna say you, but it's Stella Stargardt is is walking her through the house. Are you, is that kind of your process on, on film through the actor?
Joachim: It's funny because when we wrote this, I think in many ways Stella's character was not us particularly at the beginning. He was kind of the nightmare of being the follower director who just didn't handle the family and all that, which we're of obviously hoping we're not
Joe: Worst case scenario. Yeah,
Joachim: exactly.
Joachim: Exactly. Which can be a great energy by the, you know,
Eskil: exercise your fears.
Joachim: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But, but to your point, I think. That you also gotta ask, we say the me question about all characters. So to write someone good, whoever it is, however, let's call it a small, seemingly important, unimportant part, you've gotta think, who are they?
Joachim: They gotta be a tip of an iceberg. You need to know a bit about who they are. How do they get there? Where do they go? And
Joe: you're saying that's the formality, that's a formal process. You're going step by step.
Joachim: You need to illustrate and have ready. And every person coming on set will ask me as a director, and Escal knows this and he helps me, they ask me, who am I?
Joachim: What am I doing? Why am I here? What am I doing tomorrow? What did I have for breakfast? Even sometimes, like all these questions, you gotta kind of have a feeling for the characters. And we are character driven screenwriters. I think
Eskil: definitely sometimes we will have a formal idea and that might seem like, just superficial one, but often they're kind of intuitions of what direction we wanna go. And, and it's usually when we, if we have this sense, oh, we wanna do something with voiceover again, and, and in this style, and we won't, don't really know why until we get the idea of, yes, we'll do this story of house, you know, and then, then suddenly these things lock and that helps us know we're heading in the right direction.
Eskil: I think all writers have that experience that you have these kind of inklings of ideas or, or like fragments. And it's when they start to gravitate towards each other that, you know, you're actually on the right path. And we have a lot of that going on. I mean, we, we work in a kind of a weird way where we sit and we have some ideas that maybe Yoki brought into the room and we discuss them, but we don't know yet that that's gonna be the film.
Eskil: We try to be open for a very long time. We just discuss everything and we discuss our lives and we play music and we talk about films and we just, and we add ideas all the time. And they might go in, in radically different directions and then quite late, you know, we have to decide, you know, is this the direction or is that the direction?
Eskil: And I remember we had, we began with the sisters and we're not to be one of the sister. And this idea of growing up in the same house with the same parents and still have a radically different childhood because of the age gap and because of your personality, bringing out something else in your parents and, and all that.
Eskil: And, and then the father became like an interesting thing and he came in to the writing room, taking over quite a lot. And then this meta element came of both the, which came from that the daughter was a stage actress, which ran is very renowned. Super talented stage actress in Norway, and then the father became film director and, and it was, you know, we didn't feel that was earned.
Eskil: We were a little bit afraid of that until we had the idea of the ending of that scene. Like spoiler alert, when they collaborate on that shot at the very end. And when we had that idea, that was the moment where we knew we had the film. And I think that was maybe four months into the working process.
Joe: Talk about that moment when you said, you know, we were afraid of that. 'cause it kind of goes to what I was saying as my week. There are things that are gonna come up in the process. I call it the moment of anguish. Where, you know, you're, you know, you're going to reveal yourself. You know, you're going to expose something about yourself that you think you've been hiding, and it's gonna be very apparent.
Joe: And again, like props to you guys. The, the, the, the, the, the, the movie resonates with emotional courage. I love how you're talking about pain. I love how you're talking about whose pain gets prioritized. These two people trying to see whose pain is going to get, and they're both in pain, you know, so talk about your moments when you come up to these lines where you just want to like, turn away.
Joachim: But that's what our friendship is, is our strength.
Eskil: I, I, I think so. You know, we are, and I think this is a big part of our process. You mentioned the worst person in the world was a big success for us. We never thought we would have that kind of success, especially in the us And then when we start writing, we just need.
Eskil: All those expectations and everything, we just need to clean that out of the room. So it can just be us, you know? And, and, and then we have this amazing thing that we just, we are so relaxed in each other company. We are best friends. We talk about everything. I can be completely myself. We can be very, very personal.
Eskil: It's a very safe space. You know? It, it's, it's we kind of forget that this is gonna end up on a big screen in front of hopefully a lot of people. You know, we, we managed to do that quite easily. We, we managed to be very personal and, and put a lot of our own psychology or into the characters in weird ways, you know?
Eskil: And so, so that's. When we have moments of doubt, it's just we feel that it's not good enough. Or the meta element, is that earned or will it be like naval ging, you know, making a movie about movies and, and we get all those secondary thoughts into our heads. That's when we. We kind of, have a bad day, I think.
Eskil: Is
Joachim: that I, I agree. And I, I think what your question, Joe, is really, really interesting. And I, I, I love the fact that you're making this, you know, making us talk about doubts and the struggle and all that. And we're gonna try to not feel pretentious about it because we feel very privileged that we're allowed to make films.
Joachim: And I'm sure a lot of people that have made a couple of films are feeling that they, they almost feel shameful even complaining about anything. But yes, everything that's worth doing is also a struggle. That's life. So we have these moments when we are now accepting that they, they're, we reveal ourselves in ways where vanity has to kind of stay in the background.
Joachim: And we, we have to talk about human imperfection, doubts our faults in a way through the characters to make it human. And that's the discipline to not idealize. And there's, I have a constant. Track in my mind of the worst critic or, or a critic who thinks I'm the worst filmmaker in the world. That can occur on any day.
Joachim: And think I, I can imagine a parody of, of what we do every day if I go down that rabbit hole. And I, I think it's great to keep the focus on the ball forward momentum coming up with new ideas, feeling the fun and joy of storytelling with Eski. I, I have to say I admire Eski who can ride alone. I think we have certain forces that we share and certain forces that are a bit different.
Joachim: So I think Eski is a much better actual writer than me. Eski is by the keyboard. Eski will write the scenes out after, in a year maybe we work together in shaping things and scenes and everything up until a point, maybe when there's a couple of months left till deadline. And eSkill says, now we've been together every.
Joachim: Get the hell outta the room,
Joe: please. Let me think.
Joachim: We feel that we have a structure, but Eski will discover when he writes that out. A lot of problems that we need to solve in the evenings and I come in and out, but Eski also comes up with stuff in that process that can be really imagined and wonderful and find solution intuitively.
Joachim: 'cause we're under pressure alone without me. I think my maybe strength in the early parts is saying, Hey, I wanna make another film come along. My friend and I have all these stupid ideas and I, I ramble a lot. I walk around a lot. I'm very restless and a lot of it ends on the floor. But what we realize is that me rambling for some reason, triggers my best friend to also start having some ideas.
Joachim: And maybe he also had some ideas that he brings in early on. That happens too. And together we lose track and we come up with something that feels like our ideas. And maybe sometimes I felt that, oh, but that was a version of something that I had. But Eski also came up with it in a way. And that symbiosis makes it hard to track back.
Joachim: We often get vulnerable when people ask us who came up with this or that. We both maybe feel we did and that's a good thing, you know, ultimately because it keeps us working and we have this like philosophy of everyone in the family should stay happy and the important thing is the result. You know?
Joachim: And I know Joe, you're nodding now with a big smile. I think you understand what we're talking about is this. You always try to take the high road and not let your ego get in the mix too much because at the end of the day, you know, the moment when we got on for a second time together, we just fucking love each other.
Joachim: You know, it's Hey man, we made another film and it's wonderful and we with that, sorry for swearing on your podcast here, but you know, it's really, we're passionate about our collaboration and I don't know quite how a lot of this happens. I might have my idea of it, but honestly. I, I can kind of see just like in our narrative that there are a rashman situation of this led to this, led to this, which is infinitely complex and at the end of the day it comes down on paper through ESCO's talent.
Joachim: I couldn't do it without him and I'm just super stoked on it.
Joe: Let me, let me go to some practical stuff. 'cause you, you touched on structure and I find that this movie is both, you know, you use the word formal. It's amazing to me because it's both formal and very free at the same time. You have this quality of just like ease and flow while also it's, it's, you know, very well structured.
Joe: How do you guys think about structure? How do you get to structure? Do you care about and track characters? Who arc? Do you look for a midpoint? You know, do you have signposts that come from the more, you know, school oriented academia of this is how you write, do, pick and choose. How do you think about structure?
Joe: Because you got to something that I think is both well structured and in a way unique. You know, it's, it, it's got its own rhythm.
Eskil: Thank you. I, I. We care a lot about structure, but we don't begin with plot or structure. We begin with character and, and some sequences, you know, or visual ideas and, and
Joachim: themes.
Eskil: And themes. Themes. Of course, we, we work on that quite a long time. And in that process, of course, parts of story will come in, you know, or will find the ending, or we will, will get those things. But we, we try to not start with the plot because I feel personally if I start with the plot, I will, my ideas will become illustrations of that plot.
Eskil: You know, they will be like, how can I show that this character, you know, has a bad relationship with his mother? Then you start to think, I will start to thinking cliches, you know, it, it's nice to be open and just find what's interesting. Oh, oh, that's inspiring, and then. When we work out the plot, it's oh, this scene can be an illustration that he has a bad relationship with his mother.
Eskil: You know, you can you, and then can you
Joe: talk about an instance where character and theme meet plot? Like how do you, you know, 'cause I mean, it's like forward momentum in the story is important, right? Your guy, your story moves forward. And, and how what, what can you talk about how you translate those very important things and, and it's such a great thing to think about, like your movie outside of plot and and it becoming an illustration of something that's it becomes dead in its own way.
Joe: Right? If you, if you put it in the wrong secret.
Joachim: I have an example, if I may. I, I am, you're asking us the big, most important and most fun question in the world right now. So you gotta stop my rambling here. I'll try to be concise. So we. I'm both quite curious about intellectual knowledge, about dramatic, about how things move through time in terms of density change and difference and, and repetition, all that.
Joachim: We, we've also read Musk, who's like the great structuralist of every human movement has a seven point structure. We, we've also looked at the American wonderful screenwriting, tradition, all that. But we have a feeling where we're coming from that what you add is your taste and vibe of musicality to the dramaturgical structure of each film.
Joachim: That is the art. How do you play it your way? So. I'll give you an example. You asked about theme and character opening sequence of sentimental value. You're not only establishing character, you're establishing your themes and your film language. So first sequence in the film is basically first there's a pan over a city, down with life, and the birds are singing and we go to a graveyard that draws a line of some allegorical possibility or it could just be the titles.
Joachim: Who knows? Then we go into a house and we have a sequence, which is written by Rena Rvi character Nora. When she was 12, she wrote a visitation about how it would be to be a house and to look back at her family, and then she has to research, talk to her parents, go back in time. We learn a couple of things.
Joachim: We learned that time moves quick. That's a theme. This is filmed by reconciliation at the end. Have they moved forward and realize their father might die? Yes, they have. We also learned that the parents are arguing a lot, and that as a child you avoid that. Through creating something and being the good daughter and creating a funny paper where you talk about it in a funny, entertaining way to survive that is inherently what the film is about.
Joachim: Why do we tell stories in order to survive? To quote Joe Didion, we also learned that when she looks back at this a few years later, she thinks about why she hid that pain of the parents quarreling through that funny little essay, essay she wrote. That's an interesting reflection going forward because that's her deep grief that she's reconciling and, and, and grappling with both with her sister and her father.
Joachim: And then we've also learned that it's as if the house has witnessed something that the people don't know how to talk about because the house has been there for 130 years, the people haven't. So how does that play into the theme of generational trauma? Again, this, we not only identify with character, but also with a bigger.
Joachim: Existential thematic of time and existence. I'm sorry for being pretentious. I'm trying to just be crafty and specific about how we talk about it. Okay.
Joe: Amen brother. I've just riveted go
Joachim: and then we do a break to tell the audience that this is gonna be a sequential film. So we're teaching the audience how to relate to our language, which is we go from this extremely montagey jumping around in time and space straight to a closeup of a face, which is Renato Rway in a whole long suspense humoristic suspense sequence of having stage fright very identified with one characters, with very little dialogue, just actions, movements, running emotions, which sets up the result of this young girl we just saw, and how, what an ambivalent approach and avoidance mechanism she has in her work, which I think is very humanly relatable.
Joachim: We have a lot of stuff going on in our lives that we yearn for and yet are deeply anxious about. Look at our conversation. We love writing, but it's also fearful and angst ridden, you know, so, so that's how we set up character and theme in this one, for example. I'm, but it's, it's a bit like that we think.
Eskil: Yeah. And it's also sets up the film, like you say, you know, a lot of people said when they watched the stage fright scene in early edits oh, we should begin there, you know? But if you begin with Renata's character, Nora, in that way, you would expect a more conventional film that follows that character all the way through.
Eskil: If you begin with the montage of the house, you just say to the audience. This film can go anywhere, you know, this film, would you impose your aesthetic and a way of telling a story on the audience, which I think is our job. You know, we are in control. You have to show the, the the spectator who decides what the rules are.
Eskil: You know, you can't be defensive while you are writing or editing, trying to say, oh, you know, what will the spectator think? We have to be careful, you know, you should assume control. But, but I wanna go back to what you were talking about. I think it's very essential, you know, how, how you approach structure.
Eskil: And I feel when you read those books about screenplay structure it's, it's very well observed. You know, the three act structure, the five act structure. But it's, it's, it's always, I think, written by people who analyze, finished Phillips. You know, I think that idea of structure. Is not helpful when you create I, I think you can use it to get sort of a, a new perspective on what you already do, but you can't, you can't begin there.
Eskil: I think then you, you do a drawing like the, you know, with the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, you just follow the numbers and you're drawn a flower at the end. You, you, you need to be free. And I think what we, we try, we know the craft of it but I think the most important thing is to tell a story in your way. And I think the best way of thinking about structure is to begin, begin an interesting place and, and keep it interesting and end it you just in that, in a good way.
Eskil: You know, you just, you need to keep people interested.
Joe: I'm gonna interpret back what I heard you say, which is you start with character and theme. You get to plot through behavior. And that whole, that whole opening is not only the, the camera behaving, you know, because I, the way you use the camera to tell what you're talking about, but also the behavior of this girl, right?
Joe: And the behavior of families. And, and it gets you. And, and that creates that whole sequence, which sets up the thematic and the character of, of, of the, of the movie. So that's great. I mean, I kind of wanna ask you if you guys you know, what would you do if you had to come to Hollywood? You know, when you come to Hollywood, how are you gonna, how are you gonna deal with that much more rigid you know, kind of thing.
Joe: It, I mean, is that, is that, I just, that's, I'm curious of, these are two different cultures. There's the European film culture, independent film culture the you know, Hollywood film culture. Both have made a astounding films, you know, I'm sure you guys have American films or you Hollywood films that you love.
Joe: Right. So what, you know, and, and I think a lot of the people you know, who listen to this show are either like independent minded or they're trying to make a living. Right? There is that kind of, you know, conflict in, in, in this. What, how do you think you would approach that discussion? You know, where, where I, and I, I fully think that's what make you, makes you guys great is how you start, right?
Joe: And, and you find your way into something very, you know, unique or authentic to you. How do you think you would have that discussion amongst yourselves if you sort of had a fit into a bigger framework, or would you just say no?
Joachim: So here's the thing, I, I feel I understand your question. And thank you for the compliment that that underlines it in a way that you feel that we have or a thing going that that is ours.
Joachim: And I, I take that, but at the same time, I think dichotomy of Europe and Hollywood is a false one. If I may offer like a slightly. Slanted version of it. First of all, I think a lot of what we are inspired by also comes out of American movies as an example. The sequential structuring of good fills, for example, where there are just kind of chapters and set pieces going up.
Joachim: You know, that's one of the best screenplays ever written and films ever made, we think. And I know that, you know, speaking to a lot of colleagues, if you look at a lot of Paul Thomas Anderson's work he also works sequentially, you know, and he does, he's wonderful at it. He knows that we're gonna have to put a piece of cinema after a piece of cinema, after a piece of cinema, and that is it.
Joachim: And they're also very character driven. They're very curious about behavior and what, what, what are, who are these people and the known and the unknown of character, which is always an energy. You need to, to have both. You can't just explain everything. There's a mystery that we had towards ourselves. That we transpose onto character, we see on screen and it creates empathy and the mystery, the curiosity.
Joachim: So I think that there's a lot of, of musicality going on. But then the thing is, we also realize that we abide to certain instinctive rules. So verbal storytelling that we all train since we're children of sitting down with someone. I, I have young children, one of my daughter is five, so I'm teaching her how to tell jokes not, and she has to kind of do it her way.
Joachim: So I'm not, you know, I'm not teaching it to her, but I'm showing her that I laugh when she nailed the kind of. Punchline twist or something. And of
Eskil: course, you don't laugh if she doesn't nail it, right?
Joachim: Yeah, I know I'm, I'm a strict father. No, but you know what I mean. There's like this kind of, I sometimes I, I, she has these stories.
Joachim: She loves to tell. I said, don't, don't say that yet. She all kinds of way, you know, like you, you, you train this stuff and you also do that as a filmmaker storyteller. You, you kind of, you gotta do some films, you gotta train and you shouldn't feel like an idiot if you make a short film that sucks. Or a feature.
Joachim: I mean, it's hard work, but in the editing, you, you have a little bit of elasticity to, to, to refine these things. And also in the writing room, getting feedback and all that. So, Hollywood, I mean, after Arie, our first film 20 years ago, I, I was out here quite a lot in Escal too. I read a, like 70 screenplays.
Joachim: I was offered, I was a bit of a. Consider someone who might, you know, get invited to do some bigger films. And I couldn't find my way with it because I realized, not that the screenplays were bad, many wonderful ones, but that exactly what we're talking about is the energy. I'm yearning for the how can we do it our way, like it banned.
Joachim: This is our style. We like this sound on the guitar, and yes, we want some synth on this and no, no, no. This is an acoustic tune. Let's do it that way. And this is what we feel in the moment. I'll encourage anyone who writes, or young people if they listen, find your voice. No one says that anymore. We're we're that old.
Joachim: The people used to say that to us. Don't think about the commercial value because suddenly you are weird, but unusual and funny or entertaining or melancholic, beautiful way of telling a story that people that don't necessarily get at the beginning could become the revolution of the next generation.
Joachim: Could be something super exciting.
Joe: I like to say we're in Story Church now.
Joachim: Amen. Preach,
Joe: brother.
Joachim: What that I truly feel it. I need to tell it to myself and remind me. Move forward.
Joe: Say it. Always say it often. You know, it's, it's amazing.
Eskil: We'll be right back.
Eskil: Welcome
Joachim: back to the show.
Joe: I wanna talk to you guys real quick about how when you're writing characters as you do, and then you have a situation where, you know, Tel Skarsgard and Renata, like what, what, talk about that. How that knowing that actor becomes part of your storytelling repertoire, you know? And you know, not everybody has the, the, the, as you say, privileged.
Joe: Great word of, of, of knowing who the actor is gonna be. But just talk about what that is like in, in, in the process.
Eskil: It's, it's very inspiring when, you know, you writing for an excellent actor and especially we, we, we've written roles in the past and also this time for a, a smaller role for Anders Daniels Lee, who was the lead in our first two films and what we wrote for him, we would know, oh, he's a re he's a really good pianist.
Eskil: You know, we, we could write a scene where he plays the piano, or we could do this, or we could do that. We, we know a little bit more about that and New Achi knows ran out really well and, and we knew she was, you know, stage actress. So it's that that inspired the character and we can, we can work that way still.
Eskil: We didn't know in that way. So it's more we just hope he wants to do this. And we were inspired by the idea of writing something for that legendary, you know, I mean, he's, he's a legend. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's inspiring in another way, but also super scary because what if he doesn't want to do it?
Eskil: You know? So
Joe: are you going toggling back and forth in your brain? Are you, what are you focusing on the character or this person playing the character? Where, where does it meld into sort of one synergistic thing? 'cause it obviously had to for what, what you produce, what you're able to create.
Eskil: Well, I mean, we write the character.
Eskil: I think we just lean on knowing that the actor will do it. But you can't, you, you can't think of the actor all the time because then you might also let that limit you in some way. You have to think of the character and, and the, and the moments in the script and the story, you know, that that's the most important.
Eskil: And I think the moment for us, that's maybe that's also, you know, a part of our collaboration is that since our first feature. We, we used the rehearsals in even sometimes the audition process. And Youa Kim film films, the rehearsals. And, and I watch them and, and sometimes, you know, there's a little issue with a line or there's an ad lib that's interesting, or they drop something by mistake and that makes the scene better.
Eskil: Or just it, it inspires me to do adjustments where I tailor it to the actor, you know, and and and then Joachim looks at that and he has his own ideas, but it's we doing sort of a, a fitting, you know?
Joe: Is there an epiphany you can share? Is there a little moment where you, you know, triangulated the three and went, you know, bing?
Eskil: Well, it, it was, that was more like the audition process maybe with with the Inga ILOs who was caused as the younger sister. We had no idea it was gonna play that role. It was a big audition York came. When he looks for an actor for a role he likes to have, give a lot of people the chance, you know, and there's a lot of people who audition and do interesting stuff and, and they get a lot of callbacks.
Eskil: It's a very thorough process. And this this woman Inga that we knew about but hadn't really discovered yet. She, she just had another take on the character that that just defined it, you know, that it, it was that, you know, you write characters and some of them had really like showstopping moments, like the stage fright scene that Rena has or some of the moments Stella has with stopping a horse in beach in France, and, you know, being that kind of larger life character.
Eskil: And then you have Agnes Inga character who's just there and, and being the peacemaker and being, you know, a real. Human being, but I was afraid she was going to be the boring character. And then Inga comes in and you see that she, she plays that character in a more grounded, direct way than we thought. It doesn't, doesn't mean we have to change a lot in the script, but it elevates it, you know, we, we could see that happening.
Eskil: Suddenly the right thing becomes better because of the right choice of actor and the, the right choice the actor does. And that's, that's so wonderful to see.
Joe: Amazing. And just, it's right, they they, they draw out. There's another level, there's another color, there's another shade.
Eskil: Yeah. Well, I didn't know I was that good of a writer.
Joe: We're gonna start to wrap out. 'Cause I know you guys are doing this all the time, so we,
Joachim: well, this is, this is this is different. This is, okay.
Joe: Good.
Joachim: Real craft conversation about writing. You enjoy this.
Joe: Yeah. I mean, this is just amazing. Okay, so we have four big questions for every guest and we that we ask.
Joe: So, question number one guys, is what brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing? I feel like we've kind of, gone over that, but or at least I've experienced it by listening to you, but what would you say brings you your most joy as, as into com when it comes to your writing?
Eskil: It's, that's hard.
Eskil: I mean, it's I, I write alone sometimes and I write with Jo Kim and, and you know, there's a lot of positives writing with Jo Kim, but you also get better procrastination. You know, you when when set when we don't progress, we still. Listen to music, talk about films and everything. And usually some of that ends up in the film anyway.
Eskil: You know, it is direct ways. Yeah. In indirect ways. But I also have to say on this I, I love just writing dialogue and writing through the script, and it's something I, we, we kind of push towards the end. And I, I, I don't wanna start that too early because I think I just fall in love with the details too much.
Eskil: So it's, I, I love writing so much, but I don't like rewriting as much, you know, when you have to like we have done that on a couple of films where you just had to rethink everything and break it apart and it's super painful. So we'd like to spend a lot of time just postponing the writing of the season,
Joachim: ing details
Eskil: of things, planning it, and then, and then that moment when I get to sit down, I'll.
Eskil: You know, and, and write through, which is like watching the film for the first time. Right. That's, that's something I really love.
Joachim: What
Joe: pisses you off about writing?
Joachim: It's the realization that, at least for us, we get, we spin ourselves into very, very anxious state before we realize exactly what the film is, that we're gonna make, that after a few months we have dug ourselves into a hole.
Joachim: And I'm thinking sometimes I'll never make a film again and I'm useless. But I realize now after several films that, that that's where we need to go to get in touch with deeper needs, deeper, deeper earnings, deeper. Themes because it grounds you into kind of a self-imposed crisis. And it, you warn the people around you a bit.
Joachim: I mean, you know, we don't get depressed, but we get kind of anxious and panicky. Like so, so suddenly you start giving different values to the ideas on the table because you kind of force yourself to make them interesting. And I, there's a strange energy there that I know we, so now when we hopefully gonna sit down a ride in a couple of months, again, I know we're gonna go to some tough, tough weeks there, you know, to get there.
Joachim: Yeah. The lows of riding are very, very low. But I think that's necessary. Is my encouragement to the rider out there. They're necessary. Well, I think
Joe: it's because you're, you're, you're putting such an investment in something that at any moment could turn to dust, you know, that and the, I it's kind of like my, my joke is like, you, you know, this is very American, but you start out in New York and your wagon train.
Joe: And it's beautiful, and next day is beautiful, and the next day is beautiful, and the next day is, and it's like months of beautiful. And then you run into a valley and there's nothing, and you can't go back. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You're like, I can't go back. I, I can only go forward and I'm hungry and I'm starving.
Joachim: That's,
Joe: What if you could have a cup of coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give? Keep going and trust the process.
Eskil: And, and don't take advice from people older than yourself because they're gonna tell you realities. And you don't need that when you're young. You, you, I mean, if you wanna succeed in what we're doing, you have to be very, very, very naive.
Joachim: Mm-hmm.
Eskil: You know, because you look at the statistics of who makes it in what way or whatever. It's just depressing. So you just need to just focus on what you're doing and, and and be serious about it. But I maybe, I would say try to have more fun with. Because I can get a little bit too self-critical and selfer and, and always very problem oriented.
Eskil: You know, if you, instead of celebrating an idea, it's onto the next problem. So, so I think that's, maybe that's what I'm telling myself right now. It's not what I say 23 5-year-old. So,
Joe: well, you really do have to choose what to listen to, what voice to listen to. And it's, and that's a thing, right? Like we have these voices in our head and their voices outside of us, and you really have to be very disciplined in choosing to listen to the voice that says go forward.
Joe: That's,
Joachim: that's
Eskil: very good. I, I,
Joachim: can I, can I say something kind of very honest that I've observed? There's a lot of psychological experience that goes into being an artist or where you're from, what voices you heard as a child. A lot of sociology, it's some people are more lucky to be surrounded by people that have faith that you'll survive financially than others.
Joachim: Some people are really scared because they're scared of becoming poor and not knowing how to live. And that's a, that's a real thing. And you also have a lot of people who've grown up with negative voices around them that they have in integrated in their mind that you can't do it and all that. And I think that if you're, if you work hard and you turn a lot of those challenges for some way into an energy, 'cause that's what you got.
Joachim: And maybe it can be weird indirect fuel in your work. Maybe you got a chip on your shoulder with low self-esteem or with some sense of anxiety of economy and maybe that will drive you to make certain films. And you got, I think to be honest with yourself, as much as you dare be about those processes will give you a more healthy way of living authentically with being a creative person.
Joe: What's your proudest career moment to date? Hmm. I wonder.
Joachim: I think we've been blessed with the few on each film, to be honest. But I mean, I remember the moment, worst person in the world where it, it might sound superficial, but when we got the Oscar nomination for a screenplay, because we, we were, we were like, we praying and hoping for a nomination for international, and it was really surprising that we got screenplay.
Joachim: We didn't know how the hell that
Eskil: happened. I, I hadn't done any campaigning for that. I, I was just there for the announcement and I had this, I, I seen the, the, the video of me reacting and I had this cartoon kind of reaction where my jaw dropped and I had to put it back up again because it came out of nowhere and there was no expectation.
Eskil: So it's I managed and I have a problem with that. I managed like pure joy of just something happening that was just. It's just positive, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's
Joachim: because, because the thing about nominations is, and, and not everyone knows this, but it is, you know, there are different people voting for the nomination that everyone knows votes now for who's gonna win.
Joachim: And that's, that's a, that's a big group, but it's your peer screenwriters and your peer directors and appear actors that vote for those categories. You know? It's so, it meant that actually a bit of a number of people must have said, Hey, we like the way you write. And that's a beautiful thing. 'cause we're, you know, and it's not about that.
Joachim: We think we can compete and it's impossible to compare and we know all that, but it was just like a real pat on the back for some guys that kept stuck in Norway when a lot of people for 20 years wanted us to go to Hollywood. And that Hollywood kinda looked back at us a bit and said, Hey, you guys are okay.
Joachim: You know, and that, that was a beautiful moment.
Eskil: It, it was. And, and I, you know, the Oscars should never be the benchmark of what's good and what's not good. I mean, there's always. So many great films that don't get that attention. But if you look at the category of original screenplay through history, it's amazing category.
Eskil: It's, it's one that really picks up on a lot of those films that don't get the Oscar love in other categories. So I, it, it's, it's also meant lot to be in that, that category and went to in that great history.
Joe: Guys, we are so honored to have you here today to kind of have this snapshot of a moment in your creative life, which you have shared with us.
Joe: So inspiring. You know, you guys are masters at a very young age, I feel so, you know, I, I hope people can absorb the sophistication and insights that we got today. I just, it was a great conversation. Thank you for being here and best of luck to you guys in the next couple of days. Weeks.
Joe: What, when, when are the Oscars?
Joachim: I think we were like a couple of weeks. Yeah. Four weeks out.
Joe: Enjoy your couple of weeks of bliss.
Joachim: No, it was really good talking to you and you're a great listener and for creative collaborations. That's the key. Thank you, Joe.
Joe: Thank you so much to Yakum Tri and Esil vote for joining us.
Joe: Sentimental Value is available on VOD wherever you rent movies. The Screenwriting life is produced and edited by Alex Che. For more support, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. You can also head over to the screenwriting life.com to learn more about TSL workshops. We have a growing library of prerecorded workshops covering everything from core craft like character, want, and outlining a feature.
Joe: To the business side of writing, including how to navigate the elusive general meeting. We also host two live Zooms each month where you can talk to me and Lori and Meg about projects you are working on. The link to sign up is in the episode description. If you have any questions, you can always reach out to the screenwriting life@gmail.com.
Joe: Thanks for listening, and remember, you are not alone and keep writing.
