292 | What "Finding Your People" Really Means In This Business w/ Maggie Gottlieb, David F.M. Vaughn & Sean Presant
Lorien is joined by Maggie Gottlieb, Sean Presant & David F.M. Vaughn, colleagues and friends from the writers room of the Tabitha Brown led Youtube show, Tab Time.
They get real about the realities of networking in this business and what we should be focusing on: real, genuine connection. Making friends. Supporting each other. Lifting each other up.
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The Screenwriting Life is produced and edited by Alex Alcheh.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we are doing a Tab Time round table! Some of you might remember that I was the showrunner for season one of the Tabitha Brown-led YouTube show Tab Time, which is an Emmy-winning Kidscreen, WGA, an NAACP award-winning show.
Lorien: I was lucky enough to find a group of people to work with that I admire and genuinely adore. This episode is the “Find Your People” Episode and what we mean when we talk about that on the show. Our guests today are Sean Presant, David FM. Vaugh, and Maggie Gottlieb, who have all been guests on the show before I met Sean and David at the First Cinnestory TV retreat in 2017.
Lorien: Sean was a fellow mentor and we totally hit it off while playing a weird pool game, laughing at a ridiculous video, and coming up with ridiculous ideas. David was one of my mentees that year, and even though he lives on the other side of the country, we've met on Zoom every Thursday for the past eight, nine or 10 years.
Lorien: I don't remember. And we also come up with very ridiculous ideas together. When I got the offer to run Tab Time, Sean and I were filming one of our ideas, “Fart Squirrel”, and yes, it's amazing. And it's a real thing and it will definitely happen. It was my first time running a show and Sean has so much TV experience and I knew he could really help me and I could learn so much from him.
Lorien: So I asked him to join me on the staff as the co-executive producer. Sean became the EP and showrunner for seasons two and three, and I was really happy to be able to recommend David to him for a season two writer. And David's now a story editor. Maggie was recommended to me by a writer we both love.
Lorien: And when I interviewed her for the writer's assistant position, I just knew! She is beyond amazing and smart and probably literally saved my life at least three times during production. And she also wrote a gorgeous episode in season one and we promoted her to staff writer. She now serves as the Executive Story editor on Tab Time.
Lorien: All three of them have been guests on the show, so I'm bringing them back on the heels of their recent win at the Children and Family Emmys for outstanding writing for the beautiful episode of Tap Time when we Lose someone. Sean received the Emmy for writing the episode and Maggie and David received Emmys as story editors along with additional story editors.
Lorien: Cindy Baveda-Spackman, Stephen Borzaccio, and Namdi Ngwe. Maggie, Sean, David, welcome to the show.
Sean: Thank you. Thank you.
Sean: Delighted to be here.
Lorien: David and Sean, since you're both men and have men's voices.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Lorien: David, please say hello.
David: Hi
Lorien: Sean.
Sean: Hi
Lorien: And then Maggie.
Maggie: Hi.
Sean: Did you just make AI robots out of us? Did you just scan our voice?
Lorien: Correct. Now I want you to go, hello, are you there? Who is this? And then I can just replicate your voice. Got it. All right. So before we dive into the interview today, we're gonna talk about our weeks or what we like to call “Adventures in Screenwriting”. I'll start my week. This week I started a kickboxing class and what I really like is punching the bag, which no one will be surprised to learn that I'm doing with my daughter at her martial arts studio.
Lorien: And yesterday's class was really good 'cause she wasn't laughing at me. So that was awesome. And she helped me. Yeah. Alright. David, how was your week?
David: It was good. I'm working, I'm trying to make something. I'm making a show for babies by myself. I know it's weird, it's dumb, it's stupid, but I'm just trying not to succumb to the “TV is dead trope”.
David: So I've been working on this like vertical kind of show for literally babies because that's a normal thing for a 46-year-old to do,
Lorien: but not a capital V vertical. It's meant to be watched on your phone, but not the iterative correct story.
Sean: It’s a baby drama.
David: Correct! It's a baby drama. A lot of people get pregnant.
David: A lot of cheating, a lot of millionaires. So many RAs. A lot of Ferraris. So many Ferraris. No, it's a, it's literally meant to mimic a FaceTime call with your friends because you're not supposed to have, babies aren't supposed to see screens unless it's a FaceTime from like a family member. And so I'm trying to capitalize on that.
Lorien: Wow. Mercenary. Maggie, how was your week?
Maggie: My week was a little sick because I do have a baby and I have, even though I had the best of intentions with not letting him even look at a screen until he was two, I have succumbed to letting him look at things that mimic FaceTime adjacent and also very low impact like old school, Sesame Street and things of that nature, because it's so slow, it can't battle his brain.
Maggie: That's how that works. But he had his first week of daycare and he got me super sick. So I have not been very productive this week, but I have been navigating the weirdness of getting recognition for a project that we worked on a while ago, and kind of the mental gymnastics of that has been interesting.
Maggie: So I'm curious to hear everyone else's take on that. As well, but-
Lorien: Are you talking about the Emmy awards for Tab Time season three?
Sean: What? I mean, you said, you said it. I mean, we didn't say it. You said it.
Lorien: Well, Sean, how was your week?
Sean: It's not as productive as I hoped. I'm a little wiped out from last week, but-
Lorien: You mean when you won the Emmy for the episode for season three of Tab Time?
Sean: But not just that!
Maggie: He’s carrying three trophies around, Lorien. He’s tired.
Sean: Yes! They're heavy. No, that’s the bougiest complaint ever. But it is funny because both award shows moved to New York this year and we're all all LA based. So it was a lot of travel and stuff. But then they just hand you these things and they're like, carry 'em back.
Sean: There's something really,-
Lorien: So of course you can't check it. You have to carry it on the plane.
Sean: You have to carry it on the plane, which is, I mean, it's super fun, but-
Lorien: So you have a big old trophy on Southwest?
Sean: Yes.
Lorien: Excuse me. No, literally. Excuse me. Can I sit in this middle seat? Excuse me.
David: Ask me if you’re a Ginger Ale. Yeah.
Sean: Yeah. It was Southwest, but, but it was just funny 'cause I had to wrap the Writer Guild Award in socks. Because it had to go in my backpack and there's something humbling about “here's an award of my dream I'm getting”, so I'm gonna wrap it in my dirty socks 'cause that will keep it from gouging through the bag and destroying my computer.
Lorien: But it seems appropriate somehow.
Sean: Yeah. Somehow it's fitting for a writer's award. But it was no, but, so I've been trying to get back to it. I need to badly revise a pilot. But then I got home and was like, I have to do my taxes. All this stuff that gets in the way, I don't know if you guys have this, but things with numbers make my brain hurt.
Sean: So it is, but I got that all outta the way now, so now I can go back to the rewrite, which I'm very happy about. Guess this is a reminder to everybody. Please do your taxes or if you didn't remember that taxes are due. Taxes are due soon. Yeah. So you should probably get on that. This is an episode about finding your people, and we talk a lot about that on the show.
Lorien: And I think there's a. People get attached to networking, like making business cards and going to a meeting. And then it's very much about what can you do for me or how can you give me a job? And it's not even, what can I do for you? It's, am I? Can we be friends? You know, I met Sean at the First Cinnestory TV retreat where we were both mentors and over a pool game and maybe a little bit of alcohol.
Sean: We don't know what you're talking about.
Lorien: We were laughing at weird videos and we came up with an incredibly amazing show called. “Fart Squirrel”, which is a real thing. And Sean and I happened to be working on it together filming for it when I got the job offer for Tab Time to run season one.
Lorien: So I was like, obviously Sean, you, you have to come because you have 20 years of TV experience and I. It was my first time show running, so he was gracious enough to join me in season one as the Co EP and save my life a number of times. But we'd known each other years and years before that. And it was mostly I wanted to work with him because I trusted him and I liked him.
Lorien: And I knew we'd have fun together and I knew he could pull off everything else. But having those people on the team was really important because running a show is hard. Being a writer on a show is hard. And if you can do it with people who you are not gonna get mad at, right to their faces, obviously.
Lorien: But Sean, what was your experience like?
Sean: The thing that I find interesting about the concept of, of there's the old adage, like it's who, you know, like how do you get hired and stuff. It's who you know, and you can fall into that. What it seems to be, which is, are you related to someone, this and that.
Sean: But really it's who, who are you working with, you know? And as those people rise up, as those people get opportunities, they pull you in. You pull them in. So really it's, it's about building your network by working with people and hanging out with people and talking about writing with people, all of those things.
Sean: And it is funny 'cause I like, like Lori and I met, I don't know how many years ago, up at Cinnestory at High Altitude.
Lorien: That's why! it wasn't the alcohol. It was at a high altitude.
Sean: Yeah, it was. That's why it was so silly. It was totally, the altitude had nothing to do with the wine. But then you know, and we were friends for a while and then season one of this happened and it was, you know, season one of a show is hard, especially a show where you're basically, you know, building a ship while you sail it.
Sean: And when you do that, you want people who have your back. You know, people whose work you trust and whose opinion you trust, but also people who you know, when it comes down to it are like, I've got you. That allows you to be more confident in the way you work. Be faster in the way you work, be better in the way you work because no part of you is going, oh no, what if I fail?
Sean: Because you've got these people behind you saying, I have you. You're doing a great job. Keep going. Trust your instincts. Do what you want. That's so important and it's so vital. That, and, and then all the people like you, you just sort of collect them as you go and they collect you.
Lorien: I'm now taking credit for all of your Emmys and awards because I collected all of you together. Right. Kidding.
Maggie: As you should.
Lorien: I agree with you, but it's more than just working with somebody, right? It's hanging out with somebody. David and I, we met at Cinnestory. He was my mentee and I helped him so much at that Cinnestory retreat, right?
Lorien: I think I read your script and I said. It's really good. I don't know how to help you.
David: Yeah! Those were your first words to me. We sat down at a table. You said, hi, I'm L McKenna. I said, hi, I'm David FM V and you literally looked at me, my eyes and you said, I, I don't, I don't know what I'm here. I can't help you.
Lorien: It was perfect.
David: You literally said, I can't help you. And I was like, okay, cool. And then we drank Chamomile tea, and then we were best friends.
Lorien: And we have been meeting every Thursday afternoon on Zoom for, I don't know, eight years.
David: A decade. Yeah.
Lorien: And. We had never worked together before, like in any, I mean, I know his work.
Lorien: I read him, he reads me. We give each other notes. A lot of times we just complain about the industry. It's like my weekly therapy session with David. But then it was great to be able to recommend David to Sean when Sean was a showrunner of season two. Here's this great writer, and I'd never worked with David before.
Lorien: I just, I know he's an amazing writer and, and so it felt really good to be able to do that.
David: Wow.
Maggie: I was able to sit in on your interview, David, and I remember Sean and I called each other afterwards and you were our first immediate Yes. For whatever it's worth, there were other impressive candidates, but we were really focusing on comedy for season two, and I remember you just made us both laugh on that call.
Maggie: Enough times that we were like, okay, yeah, that guy.
Sean: But also you had a script to back it up. 'cause it's like if I showed anyone my wall of post-its with writers for staffing, everybody would just quit? 'cause it, it was, and these were the people I'd narrowed it down to. And I had 25 people for five spots.
Sean: And these, I had read them all. I had met with them all. And these were the finalists and I just kept moving post-its around. Right? And so that's when this other stuff matters also, you know, like people vouching for you that you trust. And so it, and so the community and being part of that community matters.
Sean: Yeah. You know, not that I wasn't going to select you anyway, but it didn't happen that like
Lorien: I only had to pay him $10,000!
David: Yeah. And I've, I've been paying that off weekly very much. But I think that's for, I think for newer writers, it is easy to look at how this all works and go, they're hiring their friends, right?
David: They're hiring their friends 'cause they just like them. And was, Sean was saying, the nepotism part of it and. That is only part of the story, but it is part of the story. But the part of the story we forget is that those friends are also very talented and they know what they're doing. You have personally vetted them.
David: So it is easy to look at the situation and just go well, I didn't get it because it's their friends. It's no, no, no, you didn't get it because. They are friends and they're a great writer. And Sean didn't have time to spend years with each of these writers to really know how they work and, and see if they would be good in a room.
David: And also the chemistry, which I'm sure you're moving those post-its around like a crazy person. Be like, great, we have a broad comedy guy. Do we have a story person? And so it's easy to do that. And the hard truth, really, there's more people qualified than there are jobs. So way
Maggie: Wayyyyyy more.
David: You know what I mean?
Sean: The staff have shrunk and so it's, you can't, yeah. You don't know if it's gonna work till you get everybody together. So it's sort of a grand experiment. Like I was really happy when I found and hurt when I found out you were all going out without me. Like for coffee and whatever else. 'cause I was like, the writers don’t know each other.
Maggie: The writers. The writers,
Sean: They don't know each other. And I, I've made friendships and things, you know, that it was, it was a really good feeling that it was like, okay, I think the room works. So yeah, and it is, you still have to back it up as much as Lorien sang your praises, if your script wasn't good, and in that interview you didn't seem like someone who is gonna be emotionally and comedically generous with everybody.
Sean: Then I, I would've moved on. You fool them,
Lorien: You fooled them David! Good job!
David: Haha suckers!
Sean: There's no space to put someone in who you don't think is going to join the team. It just doesn't, you can't afford it. You're trying to make this weird perfect, like family almost.
David: But especially because you had to have, what was it?
David: Eight half hour scripts fully created and written and polished in. What was it? Six weeks with five people, with 5 total writers.
Lorien: Season 1 was 10 episodes, the original order was eight. I had a week to staff and I think a day into the room. Good news. We have two more episodes. I was like, great!
Lorien: We have 10, 30 minute episodes in six weeks to write. And Maggie, you were there, Maggie, I didn't know Maggie before I interviewed her, but a mutual friend of ours connected us.
Maggie: Yes.
Lorien: So that, that felt oh, this is somebody I know who from somebody I trust and admire has recommended Maggie.
Lorien: And that's so much of it as well. Like how. You know, I introduced David to you all. And then Maggie, of course was the writer's assistant/showrunner's assistant/script coordinator, and she wrote an episode on season one, a gorgeous episode by herself while also doing those other three jobs.
Lorien: And just the showrunner's assistant part of holding me together. I'm pretty sure you literally saved my life three times during production.
Maggie: I'm curious what the three types were?
Lorien: I….yeah….
David: Well there was that bear that attacked you guys. The bear.
Lorien: Right. And she jumped in front. Right, right. And this was all during, this was all during COVID?
Maggie: Yes. Yeah.
Lorien: And then at the end of production, we were lucky enough to get to promote Maggie to staff writer. And now you've rocketed to fame. So then you were a story editor and an executive story editor. And now you won an Emmy. Yeah. And all three of you won it And. Sean, you wrote the episode and traditionally only the person who's nominated for an Emmy is the person whose name is on the script.
Lorien: Can you talk a little bit about how it came about that every story editor in the room was also the winner of this award?
Sean: TV's very collaborative. Right? And I believe in sort of. Sharing the wealth, if you can, and, and recognizing contribution. And the, the basic thing is they changed the rule after the nominations and they allowed us to have story editors in as well.
Sean: And so I was like, here they are. And by the way, there's five, there's that. We have Yes. Three who aren't here. So we have to talk about Cindy Boveda-Spackman and Stephen Borgesio and Namdi Ngawe because they were part of this family as well. But it was, it's always interesting with the writing awards, because sometimes they are for the show and the whole series, and sometimes they're for the episode.
Sean: And in this case it was for the episode, but then it's for a variety of twists and turns. Like they allowed us to add story editors as well. So I was like, yes, here we go.
Lorien: So you're there at the Emmy's, right. And. That your category comes up and they announce that you are all the winners. What's that like? What was going through your head?
Maggie: I would say rewind a little bit. To earlier in the night where David and I, as we were making our way to the Emmy's, we're like, okay, so if this happens, like it's not gonna happen. But if it happens, right? Sean's talking, we'll go up and Sean's gonna give a speech, right?
Maggie: In theory, but we're not gonna win, you know, whatever.
David: Also we were raw dogging it from the car to the venue because we were like, we don't wanna carry coats in, we wanna look cute. So we're walking like six blocks in midtown Manhattan and it was like maybe 15 degrees. And Maggie's in a ball gown, like a strapless ball gown.
David: It was a mess
Maggie: And I got honked at by some truck drivers for the first time, a long time.
David: Oh, it was lovely.
Maggie: It was really cute. But yeah, so that happened. We confirmed with Sean. He's yeah, of course. That's the plan. In theory not gonna happen.
David: We’re not gonna win. No.
Maggie: And then a couple of categories before us, there was an episode of Sesame Street that won that.
Maggie: I don't know if any of you have seen it, but Elmo talks to Andrew Garfield about the death of his mother and the grief around that. And once that won. I sort of looked at David and I was like, grief is big this year. I don't know, like maybe, maybe we've got a chance. And that's when the tide started to turn a little bit in my brain, but when.
Maggie: It was actually announced. It was extremely surreal and I swore a lot. I slowly walked without having a work workout malfunction, thankfully.
Lorien: Did you have that thing, that out of body experience where you're like, am I making this up? Is this real? Is this a fantasy? Am I alive? Like that whole, like what? Why am I standing?
Lorien: Sit back down. That wasn't you.
David: Where are we? Yeah, exactly. I remember because if you watch it, they announce it. They kind of cut a little bit to the audience of us standing up, but then it cuts to some B roll of the show while we're walking up to the stage. So when it cuts back to us, we're already on stage.
David: But I will tell you in that moment, and Sean, I don't even if you remember this, we were all legitimately so shocked that as Sean and I were kind of walking down the aisle, I said. Out loud to Sean, he said, did you even write a speech? Because we were so shocked that we won. And the guy on the aisle I remember laughed at me because I was like, are we, do we have a speech?
David: What, what are we doing? Yeah,
Sean: There was a, there was a fun moment, like after the whole thing was over and we were at the and, we were at dinner and the people from Sweet Tooth were at another table over and went and talked to them and they said, you know, everyone gets up there and says, I didn't expect this.
Sean: You genuinely looked shocked. It's you know, 'cause it was, yeah, like it was not something, Tab won, it there, the order of events all night was, was kind of all over the place. So we were up for three. We were up for best personality for Tab, and we were up for best series and we were up for best writing.
Sean: And so Tab won at the very beginning. You know, that was less unexpected. And then we lost series. And then-
Lorien: but to whom did you lose
Sean: Sesame Street? No one beats the street. I mean, yeah,
Lorien: That's right.
Lorien: So when the show was nominated in season one, it was like, it's kind of amazing that we lost to Sesame Street.
Sean: This is the second year we lost to Sesame Street. Yeah.
Lorien: Okay. That's not bad.
Sean: It’s a good show. They do a great job. Yeah. And so then I was like, there's no way we're winning. You know, the tides have turned, we're not winning. And yeah, when they announced it, it was the most surreal moment. And so we all stand and, and said a lot of things that would not be appropriate for kids tv.
Sean: And then at one point, I think, David, you said you have to go to the stage and it was like, oh yeah, we gotta go to the stage. And so we went up to the stage and it was, it was, it was this surreal, amazing, beautiful moment that it's like. And, I had just in case prepared a speech.
Sean: As I was writing I was like, we're definitely losing 'cause I'm writing this. But also there were some things I wanted to say that part of, I was really hoping that, which was that my mother growing up had always wanted to work in the arts, like genuinely and had applied to FIT and got in and all this stuff and then didn't have the resources to do that.
Sean: And she made sure, I'm one of four siblings, she made four, made sure that all of us at least tried the arts and all four of us work in it now. And my brother has two Grammys and I have this now. And it's and it, I wanted to get up in front of everybody and, and say that, and thank them for that.
Sean: So that was maybe the biggest gift of the whole thing was to be able to do that. And to recognize like, you know, all the you guys and like the producers and everything. Was a big deal, you know, 'cause everybody bled for this show. You know, this was a really tight production schedule, really tight writing schedule.
Sean: Every, you know, I mean, you know, this, Lorien, at the beginning of the season you get the draft schedule, you know, and you sit down with Amy Laszlo is one of our producers and for the writing part, she's like my buddy on this. And she's okay, so here's the schedule. I've worked it out. It's insane.
Sean: If you wanna see what visual stress looks like, it's this schedule where we had days where there were. Four drafts going out, you know, which is, again, getting back to having your people like you need your people at that point. You need the people who you're like, okay, I need a new draft tomorrow of this.
Sean: Bring it, here's, here's the notes, bring it in, and then I have to do a pass on it and all this other stuff. And then our, our writer's assistant, Alexis, who is just the greatest, so good, right? She called me once from a Tesla charging station because she's also a standup and she had to do a seven minute set in San Diego
Sean: Which for non-California listeners is about a two hour drive from here. And we had four scripts going out. And so she had a friend of hers drive her down so she could proof the scripts the whole way down, proof 'em in the green room, do her seven minute set, get back in the car and drive back.
Sean: And so she's proofing the last script. It's like midnight and she's like working on the hood of her friend's Tesla while they charge the battery, you know? And I, which is just. That's, that to me is a person that you just hire on everything, right? It just and everybody was like that on the show. So it was nice to have a moment where the whole show went up.
Sean: It was the writing award, but everybody went up just 'cause it felt like we all wanna be on a stage getting an award at once to recognize what went into this show. And this episode in particular, 'cause this is an intense episode. It's a show about death that, you know, we wanted to do for many seasons.
Sean: But there, there's always resistance to it because we as grownups may wanna talk about it, but there's a feeling that it's intense for kids. And we had gotten to the point where Tabitha said, my audience trusts me. And they do. And so it's okay, we can talk about this. And it allowed us, you know, also to, to write about it in a really…
Sean: Kind of different way. And we worked a lot with the ED consultant, educational consultant, all that to make sure that we weren't introducing fears, but also that we were not giving kids false hope is the wrong word, but we weren't talking about what was happening in a real way.
Lorien: Well, you're not talking down to children either.
Lorien: And you know, it's a preschool show and Yeah. One of the amazing things about Tabitha Brown is that she's herself. And she's talking as she would talk to a child, as she would talk to an adult, that there is no using a squeaky baby voice or talking down condescending. 'cause even little, little kids know.
Lorien: They get it. Yeah, they get it.
Sean: Yeah.
Lorien: Which is why shows like Sesame Street, Tab Time are so good. And I can say that 'cause it's two and three, I didn't have anything to do with them. So it's not my show. So you know, I can compliment the show. But even working on it was really special because that was one of the things we set out to do, which was talk to kids.
Lorien: They're people, which is what Mr. Rogers set up for everybody to sort of model after. But it's still hard. It's still a line. And you have to be very careful, like not giving kids fears, but then giving them the language and the tools to talk about it with their guardians.
Maggie: Yeah. 'cause unfortunately people who are little people experience real loss, and especially, you know, during the pandemic and things like that, that we.
Maggie: Are still very much living through the ripple effect of that. And this was a particularly important episode to me 'cause I lost my dad at a young age and one of the other writers in the room lost his dad in high school. And, you know, we've all experienced loss to a certain extent. So I think for all of us, we wanted to like really.
Maggie: Take care of the kids and give them the tools like you're saying Lorien instead of, you know, the platitudes. 'cause I think there's a lot of platitudes around death and I think there's a lot of adults who are not emotionally intelligent enough to shepherd kids through that type of experience.
Maggie: And you know, we can be one tool in a toolbox of many hopefully, because I think a lot more kids' content is not shying away from difficult subjects, thankfully.
Sean: This, this is the thing that like, when you get to the showrunner position, it's very important to listen to your writers. It's very important to listen to the room, right?
Sean: And this is again, why you, you carefully picked who's in there, right? I needed people who would, who were funny 'cause I can teach you kids. I can't teach you funny. And who were kind, you know, who I knew were gonna step up for what they believed in their experiences and thought and. I really wanted to do funerals in here also 'cause its funerals are really intense and like you're a kid there, like why are grownups crying?
Sean: That's a scary, scary space. And so when, when I brought it up with the educational consultant, she said, and we had a great educational consultant, she was amazing. She said, there's a reason we don't usually do funerals in kids shows about death and grief. It's very intense. And Maggie and Steven both said.
Sean: We have to do this because we experienced this and we remember the feeling and it it, and, and we will go to the mat for this. And that was great. And it also allowed me to go back and say, I think we need to do this. We have to do this. Like we have writers who experienced this and this would've helped them, so we have to do this section.
Sean: You know, and then we just found a way to do it that was not scary. That's really lovely.
Lorien: And this is why it's important that everyone in the room gets that Emmy because while Sean, you wrote the episode, you broke it together, you all talked about your experiences and informed the episode and breathed life into it.
Lorien: And you know, that's something that isn't recognized very often. I think there's this idea that you become a staff writer and then you just write that episode.
David: No.
Lorien: No, and that's not how it happens.
David: No. Maggie and I were actually talking about especially this particular episode, but honestly, any episode in the series, I can read the scripts and I could point out, oh, I remember when Steven wanted to change that word.
David: Oh, I remember changing that to the grandma. I remember when Sean said, let's cut. Like I can look at every one of these scripts and see a lot of our fingerprints on it. Yet it still has a unifying voice.
Lorien: That's not to say that Sean didn't write that episode.
David: No, no, no, no, no. What I mean is-
Lorien: I’m not trying to take that away from you, Sean, you wrote the episode.
Lorien: Written by, it's all yours.
David: He has, but you're sharing. He has so many trophies. He couldn't get through TSA security. They're so happy.
Sean: My bags were so heavy.
David: Oh, TSA pre-check was such a nightmare.
Lorien: You also wanna have people on your team that just make fun of you on a podcast.
Sean: Absolutely.
Lorien: We'll be right back.
Lorien: Welcome back to the show. And then the next day you were flooded with calls, with job opportunities and everyone wanting you and all of that. Right?
Maggie: So that's what I was referencing earlier, it's that we're still the same people. We're still hustling for the next thing. We're still working on whatever back burner projects we have aspirations for.
Maggie: Nothing has changed. At the end of the day, you know, it's a bullet point on a resume. It's the wind in our sails. It's like that one hit of a drug that will keep your self-esteem going for at least a week before you crash and burn again. It's everything and nothing at the same time. You know what I mean?
David: I equate it to I got to be a performer on Broadway for the first half of my life. And I remember prior to having a Broadway credit, people kinda oh, you're an actor. Everyone's an actor, kinda rolling their eyes and like the day after. I had a Broadway credit. They were like, oh, like you're a real actor.
David: And I remember feeling that exact way. Like I'm the exact same person, but suddenly there was this legitimacy. I'm hoping for that here. I'm hoping they don't go, oh, everyone's a writer, you know? I'm hoping that's the case, but I've yet to receive the flood of promised job opportunities. But I did get to go on The Screenwriting Life podcast, which is very exciting.
Lorien: I mean, welcome back, welcome back.
Maggie: But I think to your point earlier, Lorien and the point of this whole episode as we set out to do it in this moment where the industry's experiencing a contraction. I don't know if I like that word for it, but, you know,
Lorien: Having been through birth and labor, yes. I'm not excited about that comparison either.
Lorien: 'cause that's real painful.
David: Unless it's Braxton Hicks and then it's what kind of-
Lorien: It’s still painful okay!
Maggie: But in this particular moment, I think a lot of people are buckling down and like just holding their people close to them. The people that they like, that they trust, that they know they can count on like we've been talking about.
Maggie: And I think it's important to remember that while we're holding our people close, we have to. Eventually expand out of the contraction again. And remember inclusivity, remember, you know, diverse voices. Remember all these things that are also important because, you know, it's easy to get stuck in our ways and hire the same people over and over again.
Maggie: But if we aren't mindful of sharing and uplifting all kinds of voices, all kinds of stories. Like Hollywood becomes a weird, stupid echo chamber, and so you keep your friends close, but at the same time, you have to be mindful of that other stuff too, in my opinion. And also good writing. Ideally,
Lorien: When you first started writing, when you were first like a Hollywood writer, what was your view of what networking was and what find your people was like?
Lorien: How did you approach those things when you were an emerging writer?
David: I remember thinking it was just, if I could just meet this person, I would get the job. They would see me and they'd be like, oh, there you are. Oh my God. It was literally just an access to a literal room I had to be inside of. That was how I imagined networking to be.
David: I imagined it just, you just have to be in front of that person.
Lorien: And then they would give you something that you wanted.
David: Yeah. 'cause they were like, oh, there's the writer. Oh, there. Oh my God, we've been looking all over for you. But I just couldn't get into that room. It was just, if they would just read my script, I would get in there.
David: And then you realize, oh,
Lorien: But you, you have a whole career in acting in New York on Broadway. It's gotta be a similar structure.
David: it's identical, but I mean, as far-
Lorien: as how you, but even coming to a new career and writing, well, you know, adjacent. Yeah, yeah. You still had that reset of-
David: Oh, yeah. I mean, but it's identical the way you've proposed it, which is you, you, you have to keep, you keep your people with you, but also your people are very talented.
David: It's oh man, that guy is always, always gets the jobs on Broadway. Yeah. 'cause he's. Because he knows all the people, but also he's extremely talented. And so it can look like this, like closed room that you can't get in and it's just a boys club, which, you know, sometimes it is. But the talent has to kind of be there, right?
David: You still have to fill out all change.
Lorien: So Sean, what mistakes did you make earlier in your career around networking or understanding what it is?
Sean: It's more about where I might not have done a project with somebody. Like where I might like of any scale, like from just studenty things to whatever else where it might've, it seemed like the networking part was important, but what was important is the working part.
Sean: You know, what was important is the. The stuff that might've felt like it was more wasted time, but it was not where it was, instead of just, look, the networking part is real. It's a reality. You have to get out there. You have to meet people, but also if you can stick in the mindset of the projects you wanna make and how am I gonna make them, it somehow lines things up a little better.
Sean: And because you seem excited about things you wanna do and not just, Hey, gimme a job. It, it's more, it makes the socializing part of it more natural and feel less you know, Hey, I've just met you. Don't you wanna hire me? Like it, that's not a natural thing. It's more about finding your, honestly, finding your people, like you said, and that you do in a variety of ways.
Sean: It's, whether it's people you meet at film festivals or people in a writer's group, you have, or you know, it’s, we talk about, we do the writer's room session. It's just like that. Get in communities of writers and find a little group. Find, make your group of friends that you, you know, will work with each other and you will help each other and help make your projects better.
Sean: Because ultimately that's what we're doing is we're trying to get our stories and our projects out there and get them made. And it's kind of like, people would rather get on a train in motion than be like, Hey, here's this train that's not moving. Can you push it for me? Nobody wants to do that.
Sean: And it somehow lines things up and it makes it like, I love meeting, especially young writers, and they're excited and talking to me about the projects they wanna do. You know, like that's, that's great because. The business is tough and you get a little bit jaded and you need to be reminded that this is amazing.
Sean: What we do is amazing when we, when we get the opportunity to do it. And it's, we get to work with amazing people. The people we're looking at right now, amazing people. Like I love sitting in a room with them. I love swapping ideas with them. We get to make up stories and write for a living, and that is the greatest gift.
Sean: And we always forget because especially now with the contraction, we're talking about it so much like nobody's working, people losing their healthcare. It's brutal times. Occasionally we have to stop and, and remind one another that, that it is a privilege what we get to do when we do it. And it is something that we fight to do because it's not easy.
Sean: The work itself, I love it so much. Like I had, I had a conversation, I was down at Kidscreen, I had a conversation with a producer I'm working with on another project and we were doing all the formal stuff and this and that. And then somehow we got into like, how much do you love what we do? And we were both like, just geeked out kids at that point.
Sean: I was like, I love it so much. Like I love it so much. It's like it is, you know, every like Tab Time was a lot. It was very intense. But it's such a nice group of people, and it's, and we believe in what we're doing. So much. Like I said this a lot to people at the Emmys and the Guild Awards and all that stuff.
Sean: It was like, at the end of the day, even if we lose this, you know, I've worked in every genre at this point, but I can point at this and say I put a thing out in the world and it affected people, it affected kids, it affected their parents and some of those kids because of that. Will instead of growing up to be the problem, grow up, to be the solution.
Sean: You know, that is how we start the season. We did season one with Lor also. It was like, what's wrong with grownups and how do we fix it when they're kids? You know? And it's, especially now when we're in this era where we're seeing the effects of stuff. We're seeing adults act like schoolyard bullies, because nobody was real with them when they were kids.
Sean: And so they grew into these monsters.
Lorien: Yeah. It became very clear at some point on season one that. I wanted to make a show that I wished I'd been able to watch when I was little. Yeah, that a woman would be talking to me about real stuff and letting me know that it was okay to have feelings. 'cause I'm Gen X and that's a new concept, right?
Lorien: Mm-hmm. And that whatever they are is okay because a lot of people, my generation, we were punished for having feelings 'cause we were, we were encouraged to keep them quiet and not have them. And then when we had them, it was bigger because we didn't know how to regulate. And so I wished I'd had something that was like, your feelings are okay no matter what.
Lorien: You know, they matter. Yeah. It's whoa, what a weird fucking concept that I'm allowed to have feelings and they are okay and they matter like that. That became the core of it for me. Would my little girl self wanna watch this episode?
Sean: Yeah, yeah.
Maggie: Yeah. And that was honestly part of the, the pressure test when I moved from the job I was at previously into this role was like seeing the description, seeing the comparison to Mr. Rogers
Maggie: And seeing that this was a show that wanted to create emotionally intelligent adults. 'cause like most of what I write is for grownups. I think that's the same case for most of us. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. But it's also deeply important to me to help. Create a better world, as hokey as that sounds, through writing in one way or another.
Maggie: And that's by helping people feel seen, helping validate their emotions. You know, that can happen in any number of ways.
David: I think going back to Sean's point about the, the, the emerging writers groups, like the, I think the reason it's set, like for an emerging writer, it sounds like, ah, no, gimme real advice is because it's a long-term approach, right?
David: Because you're not only building your community of friends and also your skills as a writer, but inevitably, it's the same way in theater and other arts disciplines. All of those people, as you go up in the industry, will start to go in different directions. One will become a producer, one will become a casting associate, one will work crafty or whatever, and you will benefit from all of those.
David: Because I don't, I can't tell you how many jobs I've gotten or given because of a tangential, it wasn't like a producer was looking for a writer. It was like, oh, the costume. The wardrobe department heard that they needed an actor who. X, Y, Z. And so those connections are so meaningful as the industry grows.
David: So in your emerging writing group, yes. Build the relationships, get really great at writing, get really great at giving and getting notes, which is very hard. And I know you guys have talked about that ad nauseum. But those will grow into other things. And those, you can also reap the benefits of.
Maggie: People can smell when you're thirsty for opportunity. Yeah. In a conversation. There's nothing grosser than sitting across a table at a coffee with somebody who wants something from you, even if you do or do not have the power to give it. So it is critical to be yourself, which is awkward and difficult sometimes. I acknowledge, especially for writers.
Maggie: Many of us are introverts, many of us are shy, many of us yada, yada. But it is critical to develop organic friendships and not to ask for stuff from people, and the opportunities will come, but it's a marathon, not a sprint. You know, I
Lorien: I think it's looking back at your life. Did I form relationships based on the leverage I could get of finding my people?
Lorien: Or did I actually human with other people? Yeah. Is this person someone I like and would want to work with? And then taking the work part out of it. I have relationships with people that I've met at, you know, Cinnestory or in the industry. And for so long, Sean and David, our relationships were just, we were friends.
David: Yeah.
Lorien: And we would call each other and ask each other for advice on something, but it was like. Do I wanna just go hang out with this person? And it was never really about how can this person help me? Or how can I leverage this? Like I'm finding my people in order to,
David: yeah,
Lorien: I think it's just, make friends, be yourself, which is so hard.
Lorien: Not for me, obviously.
David: Well, unless yourself is terrible. And then don't be yourself. Yeah. Be somebody totally different. Yeah. Be somebody. Yes. Yeah.
Lorien: But I, that, that is the piece where. The word networking feels so gross to me. It reminds me of the eighties or the nineties, like making Wall Street business deals about how people can help each other.
Lorien: I, I like, I don't know what, I like finding your people, which is why places like Cinnestory are so great because it's so equalizing and AFF too. Like you kind of don't know who you're talking to at some point, and you're like, oh, you wrote that movie. Cool. Anyway, What haircare product do you use to make your curls look like that?
David: Also when you start a conversation with, I don't know why I'm here, I can't help you. You know that the resulting relationship is earnest and real.
Lorien: Because it was a compliment, David. That's the only reason you wanted to be friends with me. You're like, oh, this lady thinks I'm a good writer. I like her.
David: I'll keep her around.
Sean: You all land on something, which is that your goal is just to connect with people on a human level, right? The work can come later, like all that stuff, but just connect, be a human. And talk about who you are. Find out who they are. Like it's just, it's about connection.
Lorien: Well, that's what our, that's what our writing is in a TV show. It's people connecting or not connecting or disconnecting. And if you know what it feels like to have a friend or to be betrayed or to be thrown under the bus or to be helped and supported, you can write that with emotional intelligence and sincerity, and you can tell when you have a good room
Maggie: and those human to human interactions are how you're going to.
Maggie: Actually know one another well enough to say this person has what it takes to be in this room because their lived experience, you know, things I know about them from conversations we've had you know, expertise on a resume is one thing or a CB or whatever, but to actually know someone on a human level is important.
David: There's also those, like in-between times we forget about like we wanna be friends with the people we're working with. Because of outside of work, but also like these, these windows inside of work where we're holding because a light is broken and we're in a, you know, a green room for an hour. It's fun to hang out with people you like in those times, because you spend a lot of that time hanging out with each other.
Maggie: Who do you wanna spend 12 to 14 hours a day with, basically.
Lorien: No One!
David: I’m kidding. No one, not myself. For sure.
Sean: If you're gonna spend that much time with people. You, you need people who you get along with, you know, one difficult personality in the room shifts the whole tone of the show in the room. You know, and it's, which is what makes that staffing part so stressful.
Sean: 'Cause some people can mask it, but you know, it, but in this case, like everyone is the most amazing people and it worked out really well. But it's, but also why I encourage people be like. Be generous with your ideas and your time. As you get into writer's groups with people and there's nothing worse than, than you get in a writer's group and realize, like people can see a solution to a problem that you're trying to fix and they're not gonna tell you.
Sean: 'cause they're like, oh, I could use that later for me. Right. You don't want that and you don't want to be that. Right. 'Cause you, that's that. I looked for that too when I was meeting with people. Like little things I would do to try to see is this a person? Who is going to want to make this script as good as possible, even if their name's not on it.
Sean: That's who you need and those are the people in your writer's groups, whatever else that you will trust, but you, you kinda get what you give. So I always tell people it's go in, be generous. You know, if you have the idea that's going to fix the script, give them the idea. That's why you're there.
Sean: And as David said before, I think it was David you don't know where people are gonna end up. And that stuff is remembered. You know, the people at a, at a sort of formative age when you're working that are your ride and die people. If they end up getting a show and they're like, they know a lot of people, they're gonna be like, I want, I want the people who have my back.
Sean: I want the people who are good writers, solid people who I know are just gonna fight to make the show better. And the rest doesn't matter.
Lorien: This is not to say that don't go to those mixers or networking things. You have to, but what you're shopping for is friends, people that you like and that they like you, not a job or who can help you or who's on a show.
Lorien: We'll be right back.
Lorien: Welcome back to the show. Well, what I was thinking, what Listening to all you talking being with all three of you, and I've never gotten to work with this particular group, right? Because David, you were, you didn't join till season two. And Maggie, you're, you know, it's different. But I was thinking, I have an idea I need to break.
Lorien: I am gonna see if we can find some time together so you all can help me break my idea because I have an opportunity, but I'm stalled. I've hit a wall on how to break this thing, so then I'm like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna ask you guys if you would help me with it
David: And we're gonna be generous with you.
Lorien: Said you're gonna be generous, and then when I win an Oscar for it, you're not gonna be like, oh, that's mine. I gave you that idea.
David: Yes, we will. We absolutely will. We will ride your coattails into the sun.
Lorien: I was so legitimately thrilled and happy when you guys texted me the picture of you with the Emmy and I was, there was a piece of me that I was worried like, Ooh, am I gonna feel weird?
Lorien: Because I was on season one and. You guys are all now season two and three and hopefully four. I was like, Hmm, is this gonna feel weird? And I even had a friend ask me and then, then I was like, I don't think so. And then when I saw, I was just so proud that I got to be a part of this and that I, you know, connected the three of you, you know, you all decided to work together.
Lorien: But I just felt somehow that that was a magic thing that I had. And so happy and proud, and don't worry, I'll win my own Emmys. But I was worried about that for a minute because I worked on the show too, and I know all of you, but not at all. I mean, I do see the Emmy behind you, Sean and I do wanna come over and steal it and dangle it by its feet to see if the base does come on.
Lorien: It'll
Sean: It'll snap right off now, but I think it’s more durable.
Lorien: But that. But that actually was really centering for me in that I was like, okay, I'm not a terrible person. But that really reminded me that what's important to me is you guys. My community, the friends that I have. That's way more important than.
Lorien: The Emmy. Not to say I don't want one, not to say all that stuff, but that was a check moment for me that I feel really lucky to have gotten because, you know, I, I want to be known as somebody who, who builds community, but I hope, like you look at this and you'd be like, this is a community you build, right?
Sean: This is all of these connections, you know, stem from you. We're all trying to make things that affect people. That we're proud of that, you know, that connect again, connect people like shows, connect people also. It's what people talk about. All right. Well thank you all for coming on the show and congratulations.
Lorien: Thank you to all of you on the Emmy and Sean on the WGA award and for the great show. And I hope you get a season four. So let's all just put it out there. Season four Tab Time is happening. And thank you all for coming on the show.
Sean: Thank you for having us. Thank you.
Lorien: Thank you so much to Maggie, David, and Sean for joining us today.
Lorien: You can all watch Tab Time on Amazon Peacock and YouTube.
Meg: The Screenwriting Life is produced and edited by Alex Alche. Head to thescreenwriting life.com to check out transcripts of our recent episodes, TSL Merch, like our I Love Getting Notes notebook or some really cool coffee mugs. And our premium membership workshop, TSL workshops.
Meg: We have a growing library of prerecorded workshops that cover all sorts of craft related topics from character want to outlining a feature. And the view from a producer and what a producer needs from a writer. We also have two live zooms a month where Lorien and I talk with you where you can chat to us directly about the projects you're working on.
Lorien: Could find us on social media, on Instagram, TikTok, and our private Facebook group. You can request access and it is a really great safe space to talk about all things writing. So give us a follow. We have links for all of the above in our episode descriptions. If you have any questions, you can email us at thescreenwritinglife@gmail.com.
Lorien: Thank you for listening, and remember, you are not alone and keep writing.
