278 | The Screenwriting Life: Joy, Frustration, Advice & Pride (TSL 2025 Supercut)

As we close out the year, we’re sharing a special supercut of our 2025 guests answering the Big Questions we ask every writer: What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? What frustrates you about your writing? What advice would you give your younger self? And, new this year - What’s your proudest career moment to date?

An honest and inspiring supercut featuring voices from across film and TV, reflecting on why we write, what makes it hard, and what makes it all worth it.

Featured Guests:

00:00:24 - Clint Bentley (Episode 230)
00:05:34 - Glen Mazzara (Episode 233)
00:10:30 - Kelly Younger (Episode 234)
00:15:28 - Liz Feldman (Episode 236)
00:18:23 - Malcolm Washington & Virgil Williams (Episode 237)
00:23:58 - Will Fetters & Chris Sparling (Episode 238)
00:29:10 - Dana Fox (Episode 239)
00:31:05 - George Saunders (Episode 240)
00:34:38 - Lizzie & Wendy Molyneux (Episode 241)
00:42:04 - John Henion (Episode 242)
00:44:53 - Carla Banks-Waddles (Episode 245)
00:49:28 - Jac Schaeffer (Episode 250)
00:52:44 - Joe Forte (Episode 251)
00:55:56 - Kim Rosenstock (Episode 252)
00:58:32 - Sylvia Batey Alcalá & Mac Smullen (Episode 255)
01:04:16 - Courtney Hoffman (Episode 259)
01:07:21 - Kaz Firpo (Episode 261)
01:09:40 - Eva Victor (Episode 262)
01:12:26 - Akiva Goldsman (Episode 264)
01:13:52 - Jeff Hiller (Episode 266)
01:15:01 - Jenny Han (Episode 270)
01:15:22 - Melissa Rosenberg (Episode 271)
01:16:47 - Derek Kolstad (Episode 274)
01:18:03 - Maggie Lane & Eric Jarboe (Episode 275)
01:22:32 - Doug Mand & Dan Gregor (Episode 276)
01:28:54 - John August & Craig Mazin (Episode 277)

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hello and welcome to The Screenwriting Life. Today we're sharing a new supercut of our guests, answering the Big Three Questions that we ask on this show: 

What brings you joy in your writing? What pisses you off in your writing? And if you could have coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give them?

These answers come from the last 50 plus episodes. Let's dive in.

Clint Bentley: I think it's all kind of the same answer. Whenever something comes alive where it doesn't feel like it's coming from me, that gives me the most joy - whether it's writing something and I really feel like the characters are talking to each other, or that character just did something that I never expected them to do.

Or in directing, when you've thought about a scene 500 ways, and then an actor steps in, or your DP steps in and asks one question that totally blows your mind and makes you think about it in a completely different way. Then I feel like the artistic process is alive and there’s something other than me guiding it - that brings me the most joy.

Clint Bentley: What pisses me off about it is happening simultaneously. It's a paradox because it's also simultaneously the thing where it gives me great hope because I feel like I can do it forever and all of us can do it until the day we die. But it does piss me off every time I start a new script because - I've been writing screenplays for 15 years actively. And yet every time I start a new script, it's as if I've never fucking written a script before. It's as if I've never written anything. I'm like, how do I start this thing? What is a first act? Like what is writing? 

Meg: Why do our brains do that?!

Clint Bentley: Crazy. I think that’s the thing that simultaneously gives me great hope because that means there's something to discover and it's fresh. And when I look at it like that, and I take myself, I take my ego out of it, and I say, “Okay, this is great actually,” because now I'm not just running through the motions and I'm not just doing what I did last time.

And I'm not just going through the same A to B to C to D, I’ve got no idea what comes in the middle. And that process of discovery, of finding the thing that means hopefully that you'll make something interesting. 

Clint Bentley: Oh, that's a great question. I would say don't be so precious about the work. You have to, again, it's another paradox that both are true at the same time. You have to be completely like nitpicky, anal about it, but also you have to let go of perfection. And I, I wish I had, and what I would've told my younger self, and it was actually a breakthrough. I actually did this like 10 years ago where I found that I was not producing anything.

You know, I was writing the same thing over and over again. I wanted to be a director, but I wasn't making many short films. And then I just sat down and I wrote down like, okay, what, what are you worried about? Like, why are you not making so much? And I was worried it wouldn't be perfect and it wouldn't be the best thing that was ever written, and it wouldn't be the best short film that anybody had ever seen, and it wouldn't win camp.

And then I was like, okay, if that's the worst thing that you're worried about, like that's fine. You're, you're in good company. There's a lot of people like that who are doing that. And once I let go of that and looked at everything more, looked at my writing and directing, but, but specifically with writing as we're talking about that, looked at it more as a craft and just thought like, okay, you've got to approach this as if you're a carpenter.

And I'm a carpenter who makes dining tables, and I'm never gonna become good at making dining tables if I only make one dining table every two years. Or if I make the same dining table over and over again. Or if I talk a lot about the perfect dining table, but I never start working. There's so much that you learn by doing and you also learn about yourself and you learn how your weaknesses become the things that are special about you as a writer.

There's an interview with John Prine, the great country singer, and somebody was asking him about his style of finger picking and how unique it was. And he's like, “Well, yeah, it's 'cause I learned it wrong and I dragged my fingers over these strings, but people like it. So I just kept doing it.”

And it's just like that with writing where you just, you find ways to work around your inadequacies as a writer and that's what ends up making you special. And you lean into the things that you can do quite well because everybody has those things, whatever they are. And they're different for every writer.

And that's a long-winded way of answering your question, but I would tell my younger self all of that and read a lot of screenplays like that. That's the thing too, is like, the other thing I'll pass along that's not mine. I heard Paul Schrader say this, and it totally unlocked the way I approach screenwriting - he said that you should look at screenwriting as coming from the oral tradition, not the written tradition.

And thinking about it more in terms of like, you're not writing a mini novel. This is more akin to when your sister comes home from the grocery store with a dent in the car and starts telling you what happened. It's more like that, like approaching screenwriting that way - a written version of that, that unlocked a lot for me.

Glen Mazzara: That's a great question. What brings me the most joy? To be really honest, I don't really like when my shows are on. Okay, I don't like them being part of the public debate or what, you know what I mean? I don't like, you know, reading about 'em by critics. 

One of my favorite parts is the final sound mix. And when you sit there and all the editing, all the writing, the actors have done their jobs, the directors, the lighting's done. It's just done. And I love sound. I write a lot of scenes with sound in mind, and you're fine tuning it and you just kind of drift in and you're an audience member and now you’re watching it and you're moved by the music and it just - I'm feeling it now, and you just can see like everybody did their best work and it came together and you were a part of that. I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional, but you were a part of that, but it's bigger than you and you just see all these artists putting it together. That is very special. That is really special.

Glen Mazzara: You know what really pisses me off about writing is I take it very seriously and I don't like it when I see other writers phoning in, not taking it seriously, just thinking they can slap something together and going out with that. I do see it as kind of a calling and I get frustrated when I see - and I don't know why I give a shit about what anybody else thinks or does or whatever, but it's so hard.

So sometimes I tend to actually get pissed off and like I just see, you know, just junk thrown out there and people not being mindful of what they're putting out there and not giving a shit and yet cashing big checks or whatever. I just wish everybody took it seriously.

The other thing that does piss me off is when I hear about bad behavior by writers. So I was the chair of the Writer Guild Inclusion and Equity Group, and so when you hear about some of the stuff people say, the stuff people do, you hear about nasty behavior. I've listened to a lot of people tell those stories, you know, and I know how hard it is to work and that pisses me off. So, in both answers - other writers not behaving themselves. So, it makes me sound like a jerk to say that because again, why would I give a shit about what other people do? Like I should probably just focus on my own stuff. But that's an honest answer.

Lorien: It speaks to your love of the craft. And your love of the journey and that you want everyone to be in it as much as you are. It validates us when we see other people taking what we do seriously.

Glen Mazzara: I guess so. I think about what advice I would give to other writers that I wish I had known. So sometimes the advice I give other writers is I say, well, you know, I spent a lot of time working on other people's material. I wish I had maybe been more of an auteur or dug in on more, you know, generated more original stuff instead of chasing jobs or whatever.

But, you know, I had a family to support that kind of stuff. Right? Or some advice I give to emerging writers is not everything is so make or break. It's about how you handle yourself in both times of success and times of adversity. But, you know, we can just get so devastated by calls or disappointments or getting fired or whatever. You know, those things are hard. So that's advice I would give to other people. I don't know if I would give that advice to myself because I felt like I had to learn that stuff and I had to learn it the hard way.

I probably would've been a jerk to myself. My younger self would've been a jerk and told my older self to go fuck off - Who are you? You know what I'm saying? I don't think I would've been kind to myself even if I knew it was myself. So I don't know. I don't have an answer for that.

I dealt with a lot of anxiety and I was a nut and all of that stuff, you know, just like we all are, right? But maybe I had to do that, you know, like, would I have wanted me to take it down or to be more relaxed? Maybe I wouldn't have had the journey.

Meg: What brings you the most joy? When you write or about writing?

Kelly Younger: Well, it's interesting because for me Candy Cane Lane was all about bringing joy. And the theme of that movie was comparison is the thief of joy. And I really, I struggled with that because it was such a labor of love and, and so much about joy, but also it was a challenge.

There was the writer strike, there was the actor strike. And I'll share with you personally that during production, my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and did not live to see the movie.

Meg: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Kelly Younger: That was all about joy. They put a very lovely special credit to my parents in the film. But what what brings me joy is sharing personal stories that also include the grief, the lava, the woods, right? The like, you know, getting through that is the part that brings me joy. And I feel like joy is a labor of love. It's something you gotta work at and work for. And then the minute you got it, you gotta give it away. You gotta share it. Otherwise, it's not joy at all.

Kelly Younger: What pisses me off? I mean, a lot of it does, right? It's really fucking hard. It's really hard and it's really lonely and it's really an exercise in insecurity. And you think something is good and it's not.

And then you think something is better and it's not. And you gotta keep rewriting it, and you think you know what you're doing. And that never changes, you know? And every time I meet a young writer or an aspiring writer or someone who's kind of new to it, I, you know, I see them look at me sometimes. I'm like, what's the secret? There's no secret. Like it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily get better or easier. I mean, it gets better. It doesn't get any easier. And so, you know, the part, there's the grind, you know, like, it, it really is a grind. But what a great job. You know, I don't want to be an orthodontist. I'm sure orthodontists are great, but like, I just, you know, I'd rather be trying to fix and correct and straighten words than teeth. Again, now, sorry -  we're gonna get messages like, “I'm an orthodontist…” 

Meg: No we’re not because everybody understands what you mean. Orthodontists have a calling. It's not your calling.

Kelly Younger: Yes. Teeth are not my calling.

I have one thing that I keep on my desktop at all times, and it’s a quote from Tennessee Williams. I think I would read this to young Kelly younger. It’s from his biography, written by James Grissom.

And I don't know what James Grissom asked him, but I think it was something about like, why writing or what matters in writing. He must have suggested something. But knowing what I shared with you earlier about home and how home is so important to me and everything I write about home, I read this almost every day, and this is what Tennessee Williams says: 

“Oh, Jesus, I have to stop you right now. I love you dearly: You're a smart and sweet man, but you are so wrong about what matters and where the eyes should visit. The things you find so important - the attention, the prizes, the approval - yes, they matter, and never so much than when they disappear. But I'm old now, and I've walked a long and rocky road, and what really mattered, what should matter most to you, is the rare and gorgeous experience of reaching out through your work and your actions and connecting to others. A message in the bottle thrown toward another frightened, loveless queer; a confused mother; a recently dejected man who can't see his way home. We get people home; we let them know that we're here for them. This is what art can do. Art should be the arm and the shoulder and the kind eyes - all of which let others know you deserve to live and to be loved. That is what matters, baby. Bringing people home.”

Don’t you wish it was written on a freaking billboard that you pass every day on your way to work or school or whatever? You just need to be like, “There's my billboard, there's my North star, there's my sign.” And just put that on a post-it note and put it on your desktop because when the days that I feel joyful about writing, I look at that and I go, I'm bringing people home. And the days that I feel awful about writing, and I look at it and I go try it again tomorrow, your job is to get people home. So I, you know, that's, that's where I wanna be.

Liz Feldman: I think when I am experiencing what feels like a channel and I am in a scene and I'm writing it and it feels like it's coming through me, rather than I'm coming through it or, or forcing my way through it, I think that brings me the most joy in terms of the actual writing process and then. 

Of course, I love having written. It's a maddening process. You know, times where you're like, I really thought this was gonna work. I actually was just talking yesterday with my friend Jessi Klein, who we do our podcast together with, but she was a writer on Dead to Me. And we have this thing called the Twin Palms moment, which is like, I had come in with this idea at the beginning of season two of Dead to Me that if I even started to explain it would seem so silly, but let's just say we called it The Twin Palms story. And I was forcing this thing, trying to force this story for weeks and weeks and weeks and it just wasn't lining up.

And one morning I just had this epiphany of like, it's Twin Palms, that's what's getting in our way. And I let it go. And once I did, everything fell into place. And I had this old idea that I think I was hanging onto for some stupid reason. And I needed to get to the place where I was able to let it go. And I called it the Twin Palms moment. So now every time I'm sort of in a situation that feels like I'm stuck, I'm like, maybe this is a Twin Palms moment. Maybe you need to just let it go. And that drives me insane to think, oh, I've just wasted all this time thinking I was gonna do this one idea because I liked the concept of it, but it doesn't actually fit into the story.

Liz Feldman: I mean, I feel like I am almost continually in conversation with my younger self. 'cause I really try to remember who I am before all the stuff, you know, for all the good stuff and the hard stuff. I think probably what I would say is like, take a deep breath. Like there was really good advice given to me along the way, which is that, to make it, to make it, I'll put that in quotes, but to make it in quotes, in this business, you need these buckets of gifts. One bucket is talent, one bucket is hard work, and one bucket is goodwill. And I was taught that many years ago, and I find that to be true. You know, you, you need all of those buckets to be full. Some you have more control of than others. But I would then add a fourth bucket, which is time.

And so I would probably tell my younger self, it's gonna take so much longer than you think just because you want it. And just because you're hungry and you're hardworking and you're willing to, you know, throw your entire self into something, it doesn't mean that it's gonna work. And I would also tell my younger self that every failure is a gift. And as painful as they can be, they'll set you up for the next thing.

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing or directing creatively, however you wanna slice that.

Malcolm Washington: Ooh…

Virgil Williams: Finishing.

Malcolm Washington: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I hate writing, I love having written. I like when the thing that you hate the most, or the part that you're like, I just don't like this part of what we're doing, later turns into the thing that you like the most and that can happen.

You know, where it's like, I just don't, you know, I don't know this, I never got that. Or I don't know, we're not, I don't think we nailed it. And then later you're like, actually that's where all the character and all of this stuff is, you know? Or, or when you, or when you have an idea that somebody else takes further than you. You know, like when you start something and this, this happens in partnership of writing together, and this happens when you're on set and an actor takes an idea that you started with, but they carry it further to a place that you see, or even in the editing room where your editor takes all of those collaborations and then carries it to a new place.

I think that that's like so satisfying when you build the stage, but like somebody else is kind of doing their dance on, it's like that's the best feeling.

Virgil Williams: I have found that if you give to the craft, it's like Garrett Morris used to say on Saturday Night Live, you know - “Baseball been betty betty good to me, right?”

Like if you give to the craft and if you put in and you do all that honest work that Malcolm was talking about, things grow that you could not have imagined. There's a bunch of things that you can absolutely imagine your movie getting made, being on set, premiere, all that stuff you can, getting nominated for an Oscar, that's very imaginable.

But what the things that I love that bring me joy, the things that I could never have imagined. My friendship with Malcolm, my friendship with his sister Katia. The day that I spent on that van at TIFF with the entire cast. I'll take that with me to my fucking grave. Such a beautiful day.

I'm still friends with Rob Morgan from Mudbound. This guy's like a brother to me. These unseen things that grow when you give to the craft. And that has happened enough with enough consistency in my own experience I know that it's fucking true. So that brings me a lot of joy. These, these unseeable gifts that you gift, that you are gifted when you just give to the craft, when you just try and write and, and not expect anything from it. But just try and write well and create well and be kind and be respectful. And this whole thing was about writing in service.

So, and a lot of the greatest blessings of my career are because of all those unseen things that happened - my friendship with Danielle Deadwiler. Like I could not have imagined that I could just text her. You know what I mean? Fucking write something for it, you know?

Meg: Okay now I cannot wait for our second question.

Virgil Williams: I find myself frustrated by the system. I find myself frustrated by you know, sometimes you get into a situation and you're not writing a thing, you're not in it to make that thing good. You're in it to make that thing sell. You're in it to happen to television a lot. You're in it to sort of meet the needs of whoever the buyer is and it has nothing to, and you, then you kind of turn into a script monkey. Then you're a contractor, you're not a creator. You're like, okay, what kind of fixtures do you want? Then it becomes that, that, that, that pisses me off.

Malcolm Washington: Mine's like a cousin of that, where you’re making something or you're writing something and you get kind of lured or enticed away from something else or away from the core idea that got you working on that project.

And then you either finish the script or you make the thing and you look back and you're like, why did I do that? Why did I listen to these people? But why did I like, allow myself to get taken outside of myself and do something that I don't believe in? You know, and you look back on, it's like looking back on something and, and not seeing yourself in, and not seeing, not feeling connected to it.

And it's like this abject thing that's like, you did, but why? You know, I think because I just get upset with myself. You get upset with yourself in those moments. 

Virgil Williams: I would say calm down. I would say write more of your own stuff. And I would say direct now. Yeah. Don't wait. Do it now. Go.

Malcolm Washington: Yeah I second that. You know what I would, I would tell my stuff to do is I, I did it when I was in film school just because I went to AFI and at AFI, they have everybody that ever went to AFI, they keep their thesis films there in the library. So you can watch, you can go watch like Darren Aronofsky's student film and not him, like Darren's obviously amazing filmmaker and stuff, but you can go watch amazing filmmakers' early movies and they're terrible. 

Meg: It's so liberating.

Malcolm Washington: It's so liberating. And I would tell myself, I would go early on, I'd say, Hey, go watch other people's first features, their short films. I love movies. I love this stuff. And that can make it feel so big. 'cause it's like these movies mean so much to me. Like I'll never be the genius that makes the thing that means some meant what it meant to me for somebody else, you know? And that can put so much distance between you and the thing that you really want to do, but collapsing that distance.

Will Fetters: Oh, I thought I was just gonna be able to say my kids. What brings me the most joy? There's nothing like the feeling of when you first come up with something and going back to the chicken egg, like whatever it is, whether, but there's that moment. I mean, Chris had Buried. Like you just, that idea had to pop into your head and you're just like, that's a movie. Like that, that feeling and the high and the excitement, like I'm almost manic when that happens. And then there's always a crash when you have mania. But I think that feeling and then just the most obvious thing is when you hit Fade Out and you feel good about it.

Chris Sparling: I don't know if it's the most joy, but I really enjoy this sort of stuff. Like I love talking to other writers and other filmmakers. Again, maybe it's 'cause I don't get to do it as much but it, it, it's, it's really kind of fulfilling in that way. But I definitely do appreciate when like you, when you learn that someone whose work you really admire, like might know of your work and it's like, you know, not to say fan, but is, you know, appreciate your work and you say, oh, you learn, oh, so and so, there's something really kind of, I dunno, for the ego or whatever you wanna call it, just rewarding.

It just feels like, oh, that's really cool. I never would've expected that person to even know who I am, much less, you know, appreciate what I'm doing. I think just kind of how you, you really can do so much work and invest so much of yourself into something that might never see the light of day. I mean, you, your script will get written. But we want it to go beyond that ultimately, and it's just the, the odds are very, very stacked against us. And knowing that, I don't say I hate it, but that's probably, if there's any, maybe a discouraging part of the process for me of writing that's that.

Will Fetters: Now he just has me thinking about all the projects that I was like, so sure. Also like the political machinations that can happen. Which like that, I mean this isn't my, I don't know what, my answer would probably be something about like, I think the hardest thing we've already kinda been talking about, which is like what, what it can do to feeling like, you know, that that's the obvious answer.

But he has me thinking about like, you know, that the way that we're all kind of like the Greek gods that move above us can change the fates of something. So I had, I remember this pitch we sold and we, it was really, we had a bidding war. It was amazing. And then the studio president who bought it got fired like a month later.

And, and I didn't know at the time, and I still killed myself to write a great script, but then it had no champion inside of the studio and that thing just died. It just went away because there was nobody to fight for it. And so it's a miracle any movie gets made and made well. You can do everything that you were supposed to do and then just some like, you know, corporate, political, you know, just infighting can just sabotage work that everybody was excited about and could have lived anywhere else. And anyway, that's it. You just made me think about like, there's a couple things like that for me where I have, I probably just blocked him outta my mind because it bothered me so much.

Will Fetters: Yeah, that's a really tough part of it is like just that, that at the end of the day, even though you have total control on the page, oftentimes you have no control as to whether or not it gets made. You know, it's just other people who will make that decision. Trying to imagine the exact circumstances of it.

Will Fetters: I told Jeff this story yesterday, but I wish somebody had told me that Warner Brothers Television and Warner Brothers films are not the same thing. And that you can get in an immense amount of trouble if you're in a car with a film executive and start talking about your TV pilot when you're supposed to be writing a script for the film side. I just, I didn't know that. And it created this like, shit storm. I just like, blindly, just like, basically it'd be the equivalent of just telling someone you're cheating on them and not knowing it, and then you find out like, oh wait, they're not, they're not on the same team. I thought I was still working for Warner Brothers. So that's a little, that's something I actually genuinely wish I would've known 'cause it avoided a whole lot of headache.

Chris Sparling: It would be just reading scripts because I think back and I never read scripts. Again, sign of the times being what they were, but it's not like now you can get your hands on basically any script in a second or close to it. Back then it's like, it was tough to find actual screenplays. But I didn't even think to do it. And it probably wasn't until I finally did start reading screenplays pretty regularly later on in my life that I became a much better writer.

And I probably, who knows, maybe I could have trimmed a year or two years, maybe five years off that journey. And it wasn't based outta hubris. It just truly, I, I think like, oh, I don't need to read my own stuff. It was more that, and, and to this day, and, and given how, how kind of ubiquitous they are, it really does shock me when I'll meet writers and, and they just like, it's free. It's free, it's a free education. And, and I would put it up there with maybe a, just as good as an education as you might get at like, I don't know, a third rate college course in screenwriting, if not better, because it's free. 

Dana Fox: My husband always makes fun of me, but sometimes he'll walk past me while I'm writing something and I'll laugh at something that I'm writing like, and he'll be like, you are laughing at your own joke. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. I don't think of it as my joke. The character has said something that I have had to type that really cracks me up. So it's like the character has made me laugh. That really makes me joyful. And then, yeah, that's, that's my answer. 

Dana Fox: Oh, literally everything. All of it, the whole thing. Now, there's not one thing that doesn't piss me off about it. It's so hard. What pisses me off about it is how hard it is to do it. It's impossible. And then to make it look easy is fucking impossible. And then to succeed at something. So once you've done it and then people, a bunch of people take it and do stuff with it half the time you're like, what? You did that with the baby? Okay. I mean, giving the baby heroin was an option, but it wasn't the one I would've chosen for the baby. So you're just like, okay, I guess, you know? So that drives me nuts. But I've had the good fortune in the last few years of having directors who are wonderful and actors who are wonderful at executing things. And for the first time in my life, like everything I'm writing is coming out better than what I wrote, and that is really wonderful.

Dana Fox: I think I would say like, take a deep breath, it's gonna be okay. I think I gave myself like a lot of health problems when I was younger because I was so anxious about doing everything, like getting A pluses on everything. I was a victim of perfectionism for a really long time and I had to finally break out of that cycle and learn that like, perfect isn't real. That's not a thing. That's a trap and it's a trap to keep you from having a big, wonderful life. Perfect is the enemy of done and it gives you a lot of anxiety and don't try to be perfect. That's fake. That's bullshit.

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing?

George Saunders: It's the feeling of something coming out of the stone. Like a few days ago it was just blobs, it was just a bunch of typing, and then suddenly I've revised it and it's a thing that's happening that has import and it, and it seems to be something bigger than I could have imagined at the beginning. So that's a feeling of always seeking. And, you know, we talk about success and all that, that's all nice, but as I'm getting older, that feeling of bringing something outta nothing is really lovely. Especially because I find that I get a very intimate, quick look at who I actually am in those moments. Something you go, I didn't know. I thought that, whoa. I do though. But I never would've said it. I never could have imagined it. Oh shit. I've just been revealed to myself, so that's good.

Lorien: What pisses you off about writing?

George Saunders: Nothing really, except I'm having it with this book when the clarity doesn't come right away. That really bothers me at first. And now I'm like, okay, so maybe that's a sign of growth that at 66 years old you found a project that is defying you and that's awesome, you know, but I think, I think nothing really pisses me off about it. I think I found the right job.

I had a friend one time who was really good with cars, and he said, when a car makes a noise, it's either a happy sound or a sad sound. And so I think with my work a lot, as I've done it longer, the difficulties are making happy sounds. Even, you know, like you, I can get stuck on something and go, oh, interesting. This thing is not yielding to me because it wants to be more than I think it is. This book I'm working on now, I was at 40 pages for a year now. There were different 40 pages, but I couldn't get past the 40 page mark.

And even in that, I was like, okay, that's in, that's a first, you know, maybe, hopefully it's it's, it's for a good reason. I wish I was faster because I, at the end I'm like, oh God, that was pretty obvious, you know? But it, but it took all that time to get to it. So I, I do wish that, I also wish I had, you know, I, when I started out, one of the ways I got into the kingdom was a kind of an edginess. And now as I'm getting older, especially with that Lincoln book, I'm like, oh, wait a minute, I have other tonalities. I wish I'd had that confidence earlier because it's a big thing, you know, to go, there's suddenly a whole room of my personality I didn't know about. It would've been nice to figure that out in writing in my life. I knew it, but in writing, I didn't know it until quite late, you know, so that's, that pisses me off.

Jeff: If you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give to that George?

George Saunders: You know, I think he wouldn't take much advice because he was a pretty intense person. I mean, seriously, you know, he didn't take much advice. And the funny thing is, you know, I thought, well, I would tell him to be more attentive as a father, but he was pretty attentive as a father. I mean, if you had asked that guy, then what's most important? Be attentive. So I, I don't really know. I mean, I think well, I'll tell you honestly, what I would tell him, which you would ignore, is discover meditation sooner and, and don't put that side of your life off to the side quite as much selfishly, because that might be related to this bigger personality I was just talking about when I started meditating a little more and, and taking myself more seriously as a spiritual person. The writing just sat right up, you know, so I might tell him that.

Wendy Molyneux: I like writing. I know I'm supposed to be like, I hate it and I don't wanna sit down and do it, but I actually really like it. I find it's like I have obsessive compulsive disorder. I have anxiety when I sit down to write, I'm just like, ah, this is my little oh, these are my puppets or whatever. Like, it's sort of an idealized kind of situation where you can escape into it. And I think that's nice. That for me, that, that makes me happy. Now I sound like a control freak, but I think it's that there are no problems in there you can't solve. The world is very chaotic. So then you sit down and write your script and you can just have a good time with what you're working on. It doesn't have to be super serious.

Lizzie Molyneux: I mean, I think for me it’s not totally opposite, but it feels a little opposite to be like, I love it. I do love the collaboration piece of it. I mean, I think obviously Wendy and I are writing partners, so like we always, even when we're writing something just us, there's that element of like collaborating with someone. But I think the more I've been, you know, a writer over, you know, the years, like I, I think that at first that can feel scary to like collaborate or to be in a writer's room or to like work with artists or actors or any of that. Like, I think it can feel scary sometimes. Like you're like, yeah, you're losing control or you don't quite know exactly - you don't have the answers for everything. And now it's like, I sort of see the other side of it where it's like kind of fun to, not to like to know exactly how something will completely come together and be created into something bigger.

And that that part is actually really fun. And I think the more like, you know, I get excited about that piece of it more than I used to. So I think I really do enjoy that. And just, I mean, just being in a writer's room is great.

Wendy Molyneux: This is gonna sound terrible, but I don't think I'd have a good life. I sound like Tina. I don't know. I was not a writer for a long time. When I first got outta school, I worked a million different jobs, which now I'm glad I did. But I find this career to have been sort of like beyond my wildest dreams. Like I just, I think it's, it is like, I feel very fortunate to do so. Almost everything else in life makes me mad. So this is my thing. Although, listen, I don't always love getting notes. Let's be honest. And keeping my face composed when I get notes is the worst possible scenario for me. But yes. Okay. See, I thought of something. I don't love always getting notes. Yeah.

Lizzie Molyneux: It doesn't like piss me off. I think there's a few things that we've worked on that I like. We love that didn't ever come to be, and I wouldn't say it pisses me off, but it makes me a little sad. Like there's some things that you work on that you're just like, this is really special. I love it. And there's plenty of things that you work on where you're like, I don't know if I love this. Yeah. Get outta here. This. So the ones that don't get to, you know, become what you had imagined are hard to let go of sometimes. But I also think, yeah, like life is long and you never know. Maybe there's a different version of it that'll come around again or you'll, you know, so I think that's the, that's the hardest part, but I wouldn't say they make me super mad. That's hard. 

I mean, I think for me, I would say like, I think being a writer has been such a fun and fulfilling thing. I love doing it. I love this job. I feel so lucky that we've been able to do it for so long. I think I've attached so much, like, fear to writing when I first started out, like I was so worried about getting things wrong all the time, that it almost, it held me back a lot from even like, I think feeling creative or trying things or what, you know, so. Speaking up and doing all those things or letting myself just feel creative in a way that I wasn't like also really worried about being wrong. I think that's such a strong, like, you know, or perfect or whatever. So I think I would just say that like, you know, it's easy to see it now where you like to go through so many drafts of things and see just over time how many pitches you work on and how many stories get changed and all of that. That it's like there just, it doesn't really, there's no really like perfect smooth path when you're doing this, but to kind of like let that piece of it go and just kind of enjoy the, I hate saying enjoy the creative process.

Lorien: Process. I saw it coming.

Lizzie Molyneux: It's true. I think, and a lot of times, like this is also cheesy and, and very cliche, but like, you know, when the, the bad versions of things help you see the good versions of things later and you can't, you know, there's just a lot of like, it's, it's ever evolving. So I think I would just say it to like, let go of that sooner. I probably wouldn't be able to do it completely, but I, 'cause I still have some of it, but like, just let it go and try to like, enjoy.

Wendy Molyneux: I became a staff writer on Bob's Burgers in my mid thirties. I am the oldest of the hills which is why I didn't wanna say so earlier. I'm so seasoned. But I think I sort of had let it go that I was gonna sort of become a professional writer in a way. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's not advice, but that's to, I don't think I would've gone back and be like, don't worry kid. You're gonna make it. You're about to get on Bob's Burgers.

I think that if anyone was struggling with looking at an age point or this or that something I always say to people is like, you don't have to be young when you're starting. You're new. So even if you happen to be older, but you're a new voice, you have a new thing, you wrote something cool people are interested in, it's okay.

Don't get too attached to that age number. Even if you're saying, well, 35, that's younger than I am, it's like, well, that's great. I mean, Lizzie and I are working on something now that has a lot of older people in it. And when I think about if we did, if it did go forward, you know, the staff would need some, like, would need writers that are more seasoned like myself.

So it's like you don't have to get so caught up in the like, oh, it's this age and I haven't done it. Which I know this is so cliche, but I think it's also very, very real. I sort of felt like, hey. I'm not, I'm not gonna get to do it. And I, I sort of made a peace with it and then this happened and it was cool.

And then I think that, you know, just the other thing, I wound up also having four children after that point. So I think I would just tell myself to lie down more 'cause like once you have kids, you never get to lay down. And I love to lay down. My favorite moment at night. I just got a new comforter. Love to lay down under that thing. That's my best friend in the whole world, though my new comforter is so comfortable. So I think I would just tell myself. But that is another thing, is that if you actually do deserve to be launched out of a cannon into a career that's really taking off, you won't have time to go have coffee with friends and agonize over how your career's not taking off anymore. So even if you have less money, but more time right now you know, try to, to get that angle on it a little bit 'cause I think back then if I'd known, I would've been like, oh, I'm gonna take a walk. I'm gonna lay down. I'm gonna do this. You know? So like, enjoy the moment that you're in and still believe in yourself that you can get to that next, that next moment it's out there, it's waiting for you. You just don't know exactly when or how.

John Henion: Adding music to it. I actually shouldn't say that cause the note I always give people is like, the music shouldn't do the work like it should be there. But the music does help, like take it all the way there and it starts to feel like you took something that is raw and turned it into art. And that's like a really good feeling.

John Henion: I don't know if I should say, because I wanna say bad notes.

Meg: People have said it.

John Henion: I, I guess I would say that my version of that is like, notes that are in are given for the wrong reason, I would say 'cause sometimes you can really feel that like, oh this is, this is a note that's being given out of fear instead of progress. So that, I think pissed off is a tough word. I'd say disappointed 'cause like you're gonna, there's oftentimes you're just gonna lose that fight and you have to make compromises. And that's part of it too. Like it's a collaboration. But it is hard sometimes where you have some notes where it's like the intent of the note is not for the better. It's out of fear that rather than -

Meg: A fear based hardest.

John Henion: Yeah, hardest. Yeah. You see that sign up there on the wall, it says, just fucking create. And I, that's been like a little note card folded on half of my desk for like, probably 15 years now. Because I mean, you, it's, there's always, whether it's in your world, it's like writer's block. And in mine it's like, it's mostly on the post side where you're like trying to figure something out and you get distracted or walk away. And sometimes you just have to like sit down and be like, not be afraid to just try things differently. Like just fucking create something and then react to it and then try it again. Just fucking keep creating. 

And so that's just something that, you know, I probably learned 10 years in, or I started, I, I remember I was sitting at this very desk one night at like two in the morning and I remember just saying it to myself, like looking at a timeline, like just fucking create, just do something.

And so I started doing that and I think your version would be like that stream of consciousness where you just let yourself write and you go and then you edit it back later. It's just like, just let yourself do that. Though I do have practical advice that I was thinking about because of something we said before we started this career, this entertainment based career. The one practical piece of advice I give to people like ask for advice is like, just start with being on time and following through, because there's so many people that just don't, like if you know you get your first PA job or like associate producer or whatever, it's just like, just show up on time. And then like if you say you're gonna do it, do it by the deadline. You say you're gonna do it and follow through and you'll be ahead by 75% of everyone else.

Meg: And that's the same for writing. You know what? You wanna be a writer? Show up, sit at your desk and follow through.

Carla Banks-Waddles: Because writing is such, and, and this is, I guess specific to television, probably features too and cinematic - there's this feeling of being alone with something for so long and enjoying that and being up at 3:00 AM in your little house, in your little room at night, everybody asleep. And you're just cranking away on something - dialogue, story, characters that you know in a few months, this is going to go public, this is gonna go wide to millions of people. 

And obviously on staff there's other writers and ideas and that kind of thing, but there's this feeling of when it comes down to you and it's now in your hands and you've got the final pass, and that is just such a great feeling to me to know that it's like, you have a little secret that you're working on all by yourself in your pajamas, in your slobe.

But there's something special about that, you know, to know that you're creating something, even though yes, it's going to be put before a committee of peers and people and executives and notes, but that you're creating something special that is not just for you. And I think just that, that's sort of a joyous little moment for me.

There's also something I think that when you hit that sweet spot, when you do get something, when you get unblocked, 'cause there's a version of writing that we've all felt that feels very surface. These are just words. This is just dialogue. I'm just connecting the dots. But then when you start to feel something in, in your bones, like you are like, oh, I'm saying something like, I feel it in my gut when I'm writing. And you know, it's that zone. I've heard writers talk about, I'm in the zone now. When it's not just words on paper that you, you're onto something special, that you're feeling it now.

Carla Banks-Waddles: What pisses me off about writing, this sounds crazy, but many things piss me off. I can't type. I am not a typist.

Meg: What?

Carla Banks-Waddles: I never learned to type. I never took a typing class. So my words and my brain are working way faster than my little fingers can figure it out. So I make lots of mistakes. I have learned to use dictation on my final draft, especially when I'm tired, where I just speak the words because I can't get 'em out. And sometimes I just don't pay attention to typos. Just get it out. Like I can get through a draft or receipt.

Lorien: Yes, yes.

Carla Banks-Waddles: Then I go back and I'll figure it out. I'll correct all the mistakes and that kind of thing. So I would say that pisses me off because I can't type. And I think the bigger thing is just lack of time. And sometimes you just want to sit in the research phase of something and, and enjoy it and watch things, read books and really like, soak up so many things. And sometimes there just isn't time in, in this world of deadlines to just sort of just be. And really immerse yourself in a creative process as opposed to jumping from one thing to when you're juggling multiple things, that you don't get to luxuriate until you're on hiatus. And that's when you start enjoying other TV.

Carla Banks-Waddles: I would say keep writing. Keep writing. And don't let the doubt and insecurities seep in because everything you write is going to pay off. And I think before you get that first job, when nobody's paying you anything, and we're already very insecure, as we've shared about writers, we're a little neurotic. And I think that is at its height when you don't know where you're going with it. You don't know the thing that you're writing by yourself at night when you've canceled all your plans to be with friends, when everybody else is out. And you've just chosen to sit there and write something that you don't know if anybody's gonna read, if it's any good. If anybody's gonna care about it. But you're sacrificing so much to just, you know, sit your butt in the chair and do it. That I would tell myself it's gonna be worth it. Like when you're alone in your thoughts, it's gonna be worth it.

And the thing that you're writing right now is going to pay off for you later. And when I think about that transition into one hour that we talked about early. When I was writing that one hour version, and I would go away and sit in a hotel for a weekend and just try to bang it out. I just remember thinking, is this going to even get me anywhere?

I didn't know it then, but looking back, it's the thing that changed my career, you know, it was that one hour sample that people read that said, yeah, we're gonna take a shot on her. And even though she's never done this before, but when you're in it, you don't know.

Jac Schaeffer: Oh man, that's so hard. And I feel like the answer is, it's different depending on what phase I'm in. So like, so I just directed, so I'm, I'm gonna have to, can I, can I give a directing answer that's not a writing answer?

Lorien: Yes, of course.

Jac Schaeffer: Okay. Because I think with writing it's when it's when you write something that gives you the chills. I think that's the moment for me. But what just happened that I think if I could choose like anything of all the hats that I wear, it's when I get like on a wavelength with an actor and I see them like get there and, and they know it and I know it and we're synced and it's, I don't know, it's really transcendent and I just, that just happened to me a bunch on the show, which was wonderful.

With writing, I try, I try very hard. Notes always make me better 'cause I think it's about hearing the note and interpreting the note and then, and then executing the note up to your own standards. Like that's the trick. And it can be really hard and really painful. But it makes me better.

Everything's better if I listen and interpret. But I think when notes are bad direction, when notes are asking for exposition in a clumsy way, or if they're not respectful, I think that that is hard because I think everybody, everyone in the arts, I mean everyone everywhere is like, has some, has specialized skills and like if, if you yourself don't do them, then when you communicate with that person, you should behave with that humility.

So I think when someone gives me notes and it's clear they're not respecting my craft or my ability or that of my colleagues, it actually makes me angrier. If it's with some of my colleagues that makes me mad. And I think this kind of the same thing in directing if there's disrespect or, or anger, bad vibes.

And if it's like in a direction with someone who's more vulnerable. No, no, thank you. Not not happening. Oh my gosh. Is this, is this the part of the program where I cry? 

Lorien: Oh, yes, please.

Jac Schaeffer: Let's see, what would I tell her? I mean, I think that my colleague Daniel Salon, who did costumes on Agatha and was on the show that I was just on, he and I have been doing a thing where we say hashtag no suffering. And I think that's what I would say to my younger self is like, no suffering. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't actually need to be agony. Yes, you need to work hard. Yes, you need to hold yourself to account. And challenge yourself.

And things are hard and things happen, but making yourself suffer does not yield good art. It can, but it's not, it's not a necessary step. So I think that's what I would say is like, just don't, don't be so mean to yourself.

Joe Forte: Well, what brings me the most joy when it comes to writing and directing - I think conceiving the project and finishing the project and everything else in the way is just an illusion, you know? And you know, shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny, throw it away. Get rid of it. The wide open end of the funnel where everything is possible is so much fun.

And then, you know, feeling that click. When, you know, like all that work has clicked into a place where, you know, this is the movie and that happens in different phases from the outline to a pitch to, you know, the actual script. So, I don't know, I guess you have to love the whole thing, you know, it's just, it's like, it's all so hard that you, you better make friends with, you know, all of it.

Joe Forte: I mean, I just guess like, as a human being, you know, people who are not empathetic and arrogant and coming into the process without any kind of understanding of, you know, what it took to get there. But I haven't experienced that in a long time. You know, I mean, once you get inside the professional community people do have a baseline understanding of how hard it is. So, you know, sometimes it's just people, politics, things that are just, you know, unfortunate. But, you know, we're professionals, so that's part of the game that you put it into a place where it works for you and ignore it and, you know, so, it's, it's all hard.

And so I just enjoy, you know, trying to solve the problems. It's all problems day by day. Fix, fix, solve a problem, solve a problem, solve a problem.

Lorien: If you could go back in time and have coffee with your younger self right before you broke, what advice would you give him?

Joe Forte: I guess it's just, you know, like, I guess what I tell myself now is just, you really can trust your instincts and your instincts are your best guide and maybe the anxiety that comes from trying to talk yourself out of your instincts. And I get through most days by leaning into that excellent feeling that your instincts are right. And so I think I've always leaned into my instincts, but it's more about my relationship with the anxiety that comes with being out over your skis or going down the hill super fast or jumping into the void.

But I just think it's an inevitable part of the job. So, you know, making peace with that. It's rinse and repeat. Over and over again. You know, every, every project is a great new opportunity to embarrass yourself or, or drive the ball down the field and score, you know.

Lorien: Sports ball. I love a sports analogy.

Kim Rosenstock: What brings me the most joy is connecting to the audience and hearing people’s laughter. Laughter brings me a lot of joy. When you can hear a group of people laughing it's like a drug. And then but, but writing something where somebody will just write me out of the blue and that I don't even know, and just tell me that they felt seen and less alone. Making anyone feel less alone and feel less crazy brings me a lot of joy. 

Kim Rosenstock: How there's only 24 hours in a day and there's such a thing as deadlines and time. Yeah. I get really pissed off about that. And yeah, just that sometimes it feels like when I can't find it, it doesn't matter because especially with television, it's just time to go and there isn't enough time to really get there. But yeah, deadlines piss me off. But I also know they're necessary and that's the only way anything gets done. What does that say about me? 

Kim Rosenstock: I would say to trust that you will find your people, and also to not be like a freak for delivering your own eulogy in the mirror all the time because there is something in there that is tapping into your creativity and you're not weird for doing that. I would just eulogize myself in the mirror all the time as a child, and I didn't understand why, and I would give speeches and I didn't understand why I didn't have a ton of friends, and I would just talk to my grandmother on the phone and she was the best storyteller and I would just listen to her stories and her voice. My grandmother, shout out to Judith Fisher from Long Island. We lost her a while ago, but she is the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life. And I would just listen to her stories or I would go to the mirror and I would eulogize myself or I would give an acceptance speech, and I feel like I thought that was like the weirdest thing in the world. And now I'm like, no, you're not crazy. 

And also it's okay to watch ungodly amounts of television. Don't worry. It's leading you somewhere. It's not rotting your brain. Don't shame yourself.

Sylvia Batey Alcalá: I know sitting down and facing a blank page can be stressful but I don't really have that experience. I feel so goddamn lucky that I get to sit down and start typing and have ideas and there might actually be someone somewhere interested in reading. The thing that I typed is, that has never not been special to me. I hope it's always special to me and I'm constantly going, I can't believe I'm still here. I can't believe I get to do this. And my slight hesitation on what brought me joy was because it's in a dead heat with collaboration. Because the other thing is I just can't believe that I get to be on a podcast and talk to you lovely people, and that there's, you know, shared interest that's like kind of esoteric in the global scheme of things is shared among so many people, and I feel so lucky all the time that, that I get to hear what other people think about this thing that I love so much.

Mac Smullen: Oh my God. Brainstorming - that initial like, oh my God I got a great idea here and then, you know, kind of like breaking it out a little bit in your mind before you even get anywhere on the page or, you know, like to me that is sort of still the joyful moment before you get into the drudgery of like, oh my God but it's not quite a - it's not a fully formed thing and I have to really like unpack it and get the hood open and, you know, start breaking it down.

I mean, for me, I think, yeah, it's just about that moment between like, ooh, initial spark of inspiration in the shower and then like the, the next sort of two to three days that you have of just like, oh, what a great idea.

Mac Smullen: What pisses me off about writing? And you didn't give this to the optimist first.

Lorien: Gotta switch it up.

Mac Smullen: The first thing that comes to my mind is I have a love-hate relationship with this, which is that it is something that I generally, me personally, I have to do alone. So it’s something that isolates me and it's something that I have to say no to things in order to do. It's something that I need a tremendous amount of, you know, solitude. In order to really get through it, it's not the easiest thing for everyone to understand, you know, because not everyone's field is like that.

And of course when people don't like my ideas, that's the other part that I hate.

Sylvia Batey Alcalá: If this answer is cheating, I'll pick another answer. I feel like right now there's this thing where like with writing, there are at least in the effort to like make a career of it, there are a lot of other things you have to do now, like make a pitch deck. So now I'm a graphic designer and oh, we need to attach talent, so I've become a casting director and the need to transform oneself into like a single person studio in order to write for a living, I'm not fond of that. 

Sylvia Batey Alcalá: I would tell that version of myself to talent is a thing a person has, and skill is a thing a person can acquire. And I think I would've told myself like, listen, yes, you have the wherewithal to acquire these skills. Yes, you have a BFA in musical theater performance. However, you still can learn all of these things and it will be okay. Much of the craft is learnable, and if you have the ability to sit your ass down and learn for a very long time, you'll be fine. And I think I would just tell her it's fine. You're correct that you don't know it. You can learn it.

Mac Smullen: On a similar note, I think I would tell my younger self also to relax, chill out. But mainly that it takes time. You know, it takes, this whole thing takes time. It takes time to get where you want to be. Just because it feels like you're not where you feel like you wanna be right now doesn't mean you can't get there. And it takes a long time. It takes time for you to teach yourself. It takes time for you to learn everything you need to learn, as Sylvia said. And it just takes time to break in.

It takes time to be able to, you know, build up, you know, people hearing about you. It takes time to, you know, break through at a competition like Austin. You know, if it even does, you know, I mean, I was a finalist one year in Austin. I got zero calls from it, and then the next year I was a finalist and it ended up changing my career. So you don't know what's gonna be the thing. There are no two routes. You can't look at, oh, well this person that I admire did this and X, Y, and Z and therefore, you know, I'm gonna go that route and it's gonna work out the same way for me. It's just not how it works. I mean, there's no two - it's like a snowflake. Everybody's career path in this industry appears from my perspective to be totally like different than the way that everybody gets into this and has success is unique, you know, and there's no blueprint to get there, but it's gonna take time. It's gonna take longer than you want it to take.

Courtney Hoffman: Okay. Well if you said writing, I was gonna say directing. I think problem solving, the fact that time and frustration and pain equals gain equals making things better. I feel like there are very few crafts that put you through that level of a ringer to come out on top or at least feel like you have breakthroughs.

And I think learning about worlds, I just, that's still such a huge part of my lexicon of storytelling and engaging with real people that I'm writing people like and, and that window to connection outside of the lonely room. By myself, the expectation of free work, the amount of labor that goes into it that feels, you know, I, the first week of my career was the 2007 writer strike, and I was illegally working as like an intern on something and driving by the picket lines every day.

And I was like, what are writers complaining about? Like, I literally have to wash period stained underwear for a living. How could it be worse than that? And now that I'm a writer, I gotta say. It is. And I, when I joined the picket line was like, I, I get that. You might think that this is easy or it is a, it is a blessing to be able to dream for a living, but the amount of work that it takes to get there and the amount of unpaid work and the amount that we're tested against our own will to have something come to life that makes me feel really angry.

Courtney Hoffman: And, and I think just the creative grief that comes with it and having a hard time like acknowledging that creative grief is real grief and needing to mourn things when they don't come to life. Buckle up. 'cause it's gonna be a long ride. And I think the beginning of my career was all about hitting landmarks as quickly as I could.

And for better or worse, I made this jump to be challenged. And boy have I been and will continue to be, and. It's, you know, it's the measure of a lifetime. It's not the measure of one moment in your career or one rejection. And you have to just keep going and you have to just keep your head up and keep creating.

And I think, I don't know how you guys have felt, but for the last couple years it's been really hard to dream and to create 'cause it's felt so futile. And I recently had an agent just say like, well, what are you waiting for? Just go create another TV show idea. And I, I just needed that freedom again to be reminded that everything is in our power because we have these imaginations and this will to sit down and do it. And that is something that makes it so no one can stop us.

Kaz Firpo: What brings me joy about writing and directing about creating? I really believe that creating is an essential part of the human spirit, you know, to express the things you love and believe in makes you a more complete and thoughtful and curious person. And I think that it's really important as people that we don't stop learning because the gift of being able to learn and engage with the world, like physically, emotionally, is our reason for being here. So I feel very, very lucky to be able to create for a living, but also for myself.

Kaz Firpo: What pisses me off - Hollywood is a club. It is ultimately at the end of the day, right? It doesn't have clear boundaries, doesn't have clear rules, but like you're trying to like get into the club, be cool enough, make the art that's good enough, quote unquote, to get into the club.

So all the things that like got you here, like you were super talented, you wrote a great screenplay, you, you made a short film, entrepreneurially on your own, like all those skills that got you into the club, quote unquote. Then you get in the club and you're like, all right, I'm here. Like, let's do it. Then you get like picked up, put in a little corner, and then they're like, just do what we're you're supposed to do. They put you in your little corner and you no longer are now allowed to use your complete skillset. You're just trying to convince a small number of people to let you be who you used to be, which was this creative, entrepreneurial person who made stuff all the time. And maybe I'm speaking too codedly, but what I'm really talking about is the professional screenwriting system.

Like you used to write all this shit all the time on your own. You're going off making documentaries, making all this cool stuff. And then you get to Hollywood and you have agents and you have managers, and you have lawyers, and you have a team and you're really lucky and you're pitching, but then now you're not actually making things, you're actually making like PDF documents. You're just making like a bunch of PDF documents on a bunch of different people's computers for like seven years, you know? And I was very blessed to make a movie that I really love that changed my life. But I think that you, you put a lot of, we take a lot of brilliant people and they put a lot of their energy into making PDF documents instead of making real art that can change the world like they used to before they got into the club.

Kaz Firpo: Trust your instincts. Be kind and remember to enjoy the ride.

Eva Victor: That feeling when your characters are doing what they're doing and you're just documenting it. Like that feeling that they are, that you love, like, you're like in a love affair with them and you, you wanna watch them do things and that, that feeling of like, you're at work, maybe doing like a different job and you have to get home to them at night because they, you miss them and it's like. You're a little like lover or something, and, and that feeling that you're addicted to, to figuring something out and the reverse of that is horrifying,

Meg: So what pisses you off about writing or directing?

Eva Victor: I really, it hits me really hard when something doesn't work. I, it takes, I, there's a lot of grief for me in, in and not something, and then letting, like, if a thing I think could work doesn't work, that's devastating to me.

And getting notes is hard and so much of it is so painful and it's really, you know, like as a director, you're the only one there as a director. So you don't get to meet other directors very often unless you find a way to forge those kinds of relationships. And there's a loneliness to that.

And I think as a writer, there's a loneliness too. And it's really, I think sometimes I feel very protective of my work, but then again, like when I share it, I get so much helpful feedback with the right people. Of course. So I'm just mumbling, rambling, doing everything.

Meg: No, I feel like you're looking into my soul. I'm the same.

Eva Victor: I love this question. No, this is my answer that I recently discovered is my answer. No one's going to come save you like you are. The pain you are experiencing is because you think someone's gonna come pick you up, call you special, and put you in something that's amazing, do something amazing and tell you all the things you wanna hear, and that call might come for some people and it might, it's never coming for you. Like that's my advice to myself of like, you have to make the call to yourself. You have what you need to do, the things you wanna do. Like why be in pain over other people not seeing something? I mean, it's inevitable. Of course, you'll be in pain in many ways, but like you can do a job before someone hires you to do it.

Like you can, you can prepare as a director before you get financing for a film before someone says yes. You can direct, you can prepare a role in a play you love without anyone hiring you to do the role. Like it's devastating in a lot of ways, but you can do that work. That work is the work that you would do.

So there are ways to create without permission to create. And once you figure that out, you'll be in less pain. You'll be in different kinds of pain, but it'll be not the pain of waiting or, or feeling victimized by the world.

Akiva Goldsman: What a great question. I love having written. The writing - less fun.

Lorien: You won't be shocked to hear that that is word for word the most common answer to this question.

Akiva Goldsman: Oh my God. I'm 63 years old. I am a father, I'm a widower. I'm a husband. I apparently have dogs. I have done things in my life and I still want the approbation of strangers. I want them to like it. I want them to think that I matter. I mean, that's really tedious and I have minimized it over time and I can put it in a little box but it's still there. That thing that at 17 I wanted to see, just wanted a book on his bookshelf with his own name on it, on the spine, like, you know, and I guess if that went away, maybe we would stop. I mean, I get there are people like Chabon who do it for the sheer pleasure, but again, he's a mutant. And the rest of us are just working some shit out.

Meg: What advice would you give?

Akiva Goldsman: It's gonna be okay.

Lorien: Could you say that again, just so I can hear it one more time?

Akiva Goldsman: It's gonna be okay.

Lorien: Thank you.

Meg: What brings you the most joy about your work?

Jeff Hiller: Oh - I like a reaction. The audience reaction. And that can be just like, people on set or a friend who read your script or for me it's not about writing it and keeping it on my computer, it's about sharing it. So I guess the sharing.

Meg: What pisses you off about your work?

Jeff Hiller: You know, the Hollywood game and you know, now you're hot, now you're not, all that business is like, let's just tell stories.

Meg: Let's just tell stories. I know. If you could have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give?

Jeff Hiller: Well, again, I feel like I probably wouldn't take it. You really kind of have to learn a lot of things. But I would just think, I think I would just say - you're actually really talented. Just know that, believe that and my younger self wouldn't believe it.

Jenny Han: I love to connect with the audience every time I sit down to write it. In some ways, it feels like the first time, so I don't know if it pisses me off, but it's definitely frustrating.

Jenny Han: I would tell my younger self that it's okay that you're not good at math and then you won't really need it.

Melissa Rosenberg: What brings me joy is having those magical moments of inspiration.

Lorien: What pisses you off about writing?

Melissa Rosenberg: Not having those moments. No, that the worst you'll ever feel is like when you don't have it and you know you don't have it, it is a terrible fucking feeling. You know? It's just like all the demons come up, you're a hack, you don't, they're gonna find out you are terrible, whatever it is, you know?

But that's, those experiences are like - it's like you're not comfortable in your skin when you can't, when you know you don't have it, when you haven't figured it out and then you figure it out and there's the high, you know? So those are the worst in the, the best of the worst moment. 

Melissa Rosenberg: As with everything high comes out of that sort of pressurized guess I would say relax a little bit, you know, trust that there's gonna be another idea.

I think that's something that particularly emerging writers struggle with and young, young writers in a writer's room is there's this, they don't have the experience of an idea being there all the time. They haven't been doing it long enough. So they'll pitch an idea or write an idea, and if that's doesn't fly, they'll, they're like, but you don't understand.

This is why this is the best idea. It has to be this idea. They keep coming back to it and it's like, let it go. Another idea is gonna be right behind it. So that's what I would say. I say, you know, just trust is gonna be another idea. And you'll learn that eventually anyway if you do it long enough. But hopefully you don't burn all the bridges that I did coming up.

Derek Kolstad: The most joy is being alone in here anytime of day and turning off the phone, turning off the wifi, turning off everything and just opening up a brand new file and writing fade in. 

Derek Kolstad: You got two answers. The first is with humor. What's funny to me isn't funny to you, or it might be caught not, not be caught by you. That's why hard comedy I don't do and I respect the hell outta the people who do that well. So the perception of the readers is still that thing that pisses me off, where they're like, oh, I hated this element, like. Now you, you know, it's the communication of going like, yeah, I thought I communicated that.

The other thing is I, I don't think it's an age thing. I'm not gonna say it's that, but when you, when you can figure out the complex things, but not the fucking simple ones. When you know how you can, you can go like, oh, let's change the plot around and, you know, by doing a word search you have to do page 1174. Oh wait, 51 and 92 too. You just know that you do all that. That is the thing that pisses me off. 

Maggie Lane: I really think it's when I get to share my writing with other people that I care about. And then I get to see, and they get to ask me questions and we get to talk about it. And also when I'm by myself and like the candles are lit and I have a cup of tea and I'm working on a scene, and then I just like get it, like that spark, right? The spark of like, oh, that's really, and, and it brings me a smile to my face. So I think it's those magic moments and then the magic moments of collaborating with people I care about.

Eric Jarboe: I think this is what I've always appreciated about, like, people at working at an orchestra are building the movie together, you know, slightly different from sports where you're being more competitive. It's like we have all these elements. And they're all, you know, some of the parts are so much more impactful than any individual element. And I love seeing it all come together. And then the magic kind of, kind of showing itself or, or illustrating itself. So, 'cause it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to get everything together. You know, generally by the time we're in production, we've probably been working on this for a year or two already, and. And to see the fruits of that labor on screen and to see the beauty and see it all together it, it is, it's just magical.

Maggie Lane: The timelines of things have really gotten longer. And I like expediency and I love seeing things get made. So I think for me, especially, 'cause I was working in development kind of the quote unquote golden age of television and I was just seeing things like, it was like the Netflix, your greenlit, you know, like the joke on South Park. It was just so fast. And I think that the timeline of things has slowed and the best thing is to talk to other writers.

And Lorien, I'm not sure if this has been your experience, but I found timelines to have gotten a lot longer. And it can be a little scary and I think a little tricky as a writer 'cause you realize the timelines have expanded that. And I think social media pisses me off because I feel like it, you don't know how long the journey took, you're just seeing kind of the final result.

So you think that things are constantly selling all the time when really there's projects that people have worked on for five years. Yeah, I think, I think what pisses me off is when also it's buyers saying one thing and then doing something else, but also that's their right. Yeah. If they say they want something and then they like don't actually want it.

Lorien: Are you talking about the mandates?

Maggie Lane: Mandates, yeah. Mandates piss me off a little bit. Does that mean I just think they're wrong and I think I just never see them to be accurate. I look at network mandates all the time. I look at them and I see what the themes and the stories are, and then I look at their last season to see what they're reacting to. And then I can kind of say like, okay, what's actual, what are they actually saying?

Eric Jarboe: I dunno. I mean, it is tedious to develop, let's be honest. I mean, it would be nice if it was a little faster, but that just is what it is. It's not great when, like you have some big notes that aren't executed and there was no discussion about why not. Or like some other, like, even if they didn't like the note, could you have a discussion and find some other solution that both sides agree with? And you know, we see everything as a collaboration. We always have very open communication channels, whether it be phone, email, or whatever. And so to kind of not, not utilize that or just kind of make a unilateral decision -  I just don't like it when we're trying to do it. Everything's a partnership. And when partners make unilateral decisions, because that's just not the spirit of what we're trying to do.

Maggie Lane: Oh god. Don't be afraid to write a movie. You know, I, I didn't do it till I was like, you know, like 33 and I, I don't know, everything happens. I'm so grateful. I spent time on the other side and did development 'cause I'm such a better writer and I also judged through the blacklist and I read a thousand scripts and I'm so grateful for what brought me here. But I think I would've said, you know what, like just. Do it. Just start. And as my mentor, Laverne McKinnon says, hug the bear. I was so afraid of the bear of writing a movie. I was like, oh, oh my God. It's such a long thing to do and there's so many good movies, but like, you are capable of writing a movie too. And you know what? It might be good and you won't know unless you try. So it'll probably be bad. And that's great too. The first thing you write is not gonna be great. No one will ever see it. So definitely write something bad because get it out of the way and then you can start working on better stuff.

Eric Jarboe: Oh that's a hard one actually. I would meet more people. I didn't network enough when I got out here.

Dan Gregor: What brings me joy is the very beginning and the very end, and the laughter and excitement I get from the early stages of the ideas where it's still all potential and you're like, Ooh, and it's this and this. And like the real invention stage at the front end is, is absolutely the spark that like I live for on a more day-to-day level where it's like, this is fucking so much fun.

I like the moments where something's new and it's popping are the best, and then the moment where it's real on camera is stunning. It's like every single time the thing that was in your brain is manifested into reality is a drug unlike anything else in the world. I get giddy. I mean like I said, I'm in this audition process right now. I'm getting to hear my lines back from these amazing actors and it's crazy. It's so cool. I love it. It's magic. And so it's the front end where it's all potential and the backend where it becomes realized - those are the best feelings in the world.

Doug Mand: Yeah, I agree with everything Dan's saying. I would say that in the moment, there are moments of discovery where it feels like maybe the character is telling you what to do. And I used to think that was bullshit. I used to hear Paul Thomas Anderson talk about that and be like, no, that's, who cares. That's not a thing. You're making that up. And then, but then I was like, oh no, this can happen.

You have to be open to it. And it doesn't happen all the time. When it does, it's amazing. And I also say that like, the thing I'm still going for, and you know, it's like Dan and I have been married for this long. We're almost, we're going on over 20 years. Basically being together is making Dan laugh. If we're writing a comedy or move him in a scene where he is like, oh, this is, yeah, this is, you know, working.

It's something that my wife and I talk about too, which is just like, don't get comfortable - like, you know,  still take me out on dates. You want that spark. So Dan and I have done a lot - we've been up and down, but it's mostly been like, just a wonderful journey of, you know, and, but it, but it is a marriage and it is, there's a give and take and there's heartbreak and there's all those, you know, all those things in there.

And there's fighting. But, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, he's still the young boy from NYU I want to make laugh.

Dan Gregor: Aw! So sweet. It's very sweet, Doug. I hate all the middle, the middle part is what kills you, which kills, kills your soul. Which is like, again, there's this beginning that is, is this creation, it's joyful, it's this explosion of creativity and it's, it's like the most like authentic version of, of like, I feel like why we all jump into this 'cause like we have this creative spark we're trying to get out and it, and it's, it's the most fun, exciting thing.

And you know, obviously there's all this process of making something. I mean, it is like there's, it's, it's chipping away at marble before you're at a thing that you think is great. But I enjoy that part. I like the discovery and the chipping away and the math and the building and all that part is like, exciting.

This business is not designed to make things, it's designed to reject things. And it's very hard. You just want to be in a place where good ideas can get made and they really, and they really, they almost never can. And every, every movie that comes out is a little miracle.

Doug Mand: And TV show.

Dan Gregor: Yeah. Every project, every short film, every piece of creativity that is made is a miracle. And so, you know, that, that part is just so, is crushing. Every time something doesn't actually happen. It gets killed. It gets sanded down into something you never really wanted. It hurts every time. And you get better at it, hurting less, and it hurts for less time. But it never goes away.

Doug Mand: Almost everything. I am scared every day, like almost every day fighting the imposter syndrome of it all. Not feeling like I'm enough, not feeling like I'll ever come up with a great idea, reading something else that's wonderful, and feeling like I can never do that. All of these things. It's just hard. And being at the base of the mountain and being like, this will never get done. I hate that part. 

I hate reading something that I finished and being like, that's terrible. I don't like this idea anymore. Yeah. Be kind to yourself. Trust the process and work it through. Just keep fucking writing. And then you get those moments, you get those moments of, you know, making someone laugh or the moments where the character speaks to you and you're like, yeah, I like this and I'm lucky to be able to do this, and I'm grateful that I get to do this and, and make a living doing this, and, and I appreciate it.

Be kinder to yourself and write and keep writing and let go of the idea of perfection as soon as you can. And just write and love yourself and just, you know, enjoy the, enjoy the ride in the moment. It's all, it's all gonna be okay. You're doing this for a reason, I guess. Be in it and appreciate it. And that's not to say I didn't do any of that. I did, I think I did do a lot of that as well. But I would just kind of drill in the, you know, the be kind to yourself.

Dan Gregor: Yeah. I wish I'd learned the lesson and, and hell and did the lesson more of like, of really taking joy and celebrating the small wins earlier because like, I think I spent a lot of years having my eye on an end point that, you know, is not, is year's your life. And the, it's not, it isn't the end point. Once you accept like, this is just who I am and I enjoy this on a day-to-day level. And the little wins are as good as anything else. It really frees you up to like, just, just show up every day and be yourself. I'm much happier when I live that way. And, you know, it's still sometimes a challenge, but I wish I'd learned that and believed it right. 

Lorien: So Craig, what brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing?

Craig Mazin: When something just sings, I don't know how else to describe it. When there's just a beautiful harmony, and I know it's right when things, you just, you just know when it clicks and you're like, that is correct. It doesn't matter if anybody in the world told me this isn't correct, they would be wrong. This is correct. There's no defense or argument here. It's just humming in my bones. It's humming the right tune. It is in harmony. That's the, that's the most joy.

Meg: Craig, what pisses you off about writing?

Craig Mazin: How disconnected effort is to result? It's remarkable. There are times where it just boop, there it is done. And there are, there's, I've gone two weeks grinding myself over one scene because it's just wrong and it's, it makes me crazy. And then eventually there's a moment where I go, oh, it's 'cause, 'cause that's not the right scene or because of whatever. But there it is. It's so frustrating to not be able to say, well, if I just work harder, if I'm building a house and I just sleep less and work more, theoretically the house will get built faster. It just doesn't work that way in writing. It's frustrating. Pisses me off.

Lorien: What's your proudest career moment to date?

Craig Mazin: Probably somewhere around the second or third week of Chernobyl airing where it became clear that people were watching it. I didn't think anybody was gonna watch it. And when that happened and the response was what it was, I just felt great because it was legitimately after, I mean, I'd been working at that point for like 25 years. It was legitimately the first thing I had ever done that I just, I wasn't fulfilling anyone else's request, thought of a thing. I did a thing, I did it entirely on my own terms, and I was in charge of it. That was my proudest. Gonna be hard to top that one..

Meg: Yes. Alright. John, what brings you the most joy?

John August: You know, he's talking about how, you know, everything in the scene kind of clicks for me. It's when a character surprises me. When the character does something that I wasn't anticipating doing. They say a line like it, it suddenly, they just are able to do a thing that I, well, I was not conscious that they could do that. That they were, at a certain point they just become alive and they're just doing their own things. And those moments where you feel like you are just a documentarian, filming them doing their life, those are the moments that bring me real joy.

Those are generally moments where I've passed into flow where it just becomes easy. That's, that's the joy and that's the high you're often chasing. And one of the things I just try to remind writers is that just because you're not in flow doesn't mean you're doomed. And yet no one will know that you wrote that scene while you were in this magical, mystical state versus you were just grinding through it.

Lorien: Alright, so what pisses you off about writing?

John August: Probably what pisses me off about writing is that there is fundamentally this impossible task we're given. That we are trying to create the experience of watching a movie just with the words on the page. And that all the artistry we can do, all the craft, all the little tricks we can do to sort of create the visuals and the sound experience, just the feeling of being in that world. It is fundamentally limited and that it's gonna have to be interpreted through actors and directors and everybody else.

And it's never gonna be quite the movie that I see in my head. And you have to learn to live with that and accept that, like it's never gonna be quite - there's no direct brain connection where people can quite see the movie that's in my head. And what's helpful is when you remember that you are the only person who's ever seen the movie, you can have a little bit more patience with people who are still getting up to speed on the process, the directors who are asking 20,000 questions because they just cannot see the same movie that you're seeing.

Meg: Okay. Last question is, what is your proudest moment in your writing?

John August: Weirdly, it wasn't a public moment, but I would say when we did the Big Fish musical. So I wrote the movie Big Fish and did the Broadway musical of Big Fish, and along the way you do these readings and workshops where you're sort of getting it up to speed.

And what's so great about them is like they're so private, there's maybe 20 people in the audience for some of these things. Just sitting in chairs and there's, you don't have props at costumes. People are at music stands and yet I can see like, oh my God, I made this thing that was just beautiful and like everyone's crying in this room.

And it was just great to see that you can create these really amazing emotional experiences with kind of nothing, with just words and songs and that's been sort of my - there've been many moments along the way in the Big fish musical. But like those small, intimate moments were this one of my favorite and proudest moments.

Meg: Thanks for listening. We hope these perspectives help you feel seen and maybe even inspire your next writing session. 

Thank you to Ari, Bronwen, and Alex, our incredible interns who helped us put this supercut episode together.